..to think there is nothing wrong with being a "pushy" parent (Part 2)

[Xenia]

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/1770750-To-think-that-there-is-nothing-wrong-with-being-a-pushy-mum?pg=40

Just in case anyone wanted to continue the thread which just got too full.

Well, I did find the last few posts quite interesting. Apparently parents should not 'want' their DCs to be good at whatever, whether it's football or music. The 'want' should come from the child

So Russians, if your DC is illiterate for example then you will wait for them to 'want' your help before giving it? If your DC is coasting and is set to fail his GCSEs then unless he wants to do well, you think he should be left alone?

Heads - various studies have shown that Oxbridge is disproportionately MC. Which seems to suggest that whatever they are doing obviously works. So isn't kind of silly for you to roll your eyes at all those MC parents who think that their approach to parenting actually works?

It's difficult, but you obviously have to try to strike the balance. Too pushy usually results in the child rebelling eventually, too relaxed and 'child led' generally results in a child then adult who doesn't bother.

Encouraging your child to try their best, not allowing them to 'quit' when things get challenging but not blindly forcing them to do things they are clearly not ready/wanting to do.

Simples!! (If only it were as easy to action as it is to type it though!!)

Oh god! Just read the original thread very quickly & now I'm nervous. Surely you only need to be pushy if your kids aren't that bright or lack motivation?

My parents were definitely not pushy, I passed my 12 plus and my parents let me go to the local Comp with my friends as that was what I wanted to do. I like to think I've done ok, went to med school etc. I was planning to be 'interested' I certainly wouldn't make them learn an instrument unless they asked to. Am I hopelessly naive?

Habba for the second time - music is not a MC preserve.

Kids who are forced to do music as part of some project are rarely much good. Similarly with kids who are forced by their parents to do sport that they don't actually enjoy. Lots of kids who love music end up being not that great - without the love, you're never going to get far.

toobreathless Mine only do an instrument because the school gives them an opportunity, they asked to do it and DH never got the chance to do and feels he missed out so wants his DC to have a go at one as long as they want.

kids aren't that bright or lack motivation?

Mine are primary school aged - but if DC are struggling like mine have at times insisting they do some extra work has meant going from a DC disinterested and demotivated to one who is the exact opposite.

If I'd listened to DS teacher last year - we'd still have an unhappy DC and could well have thought he wasn't bright enough to ever do well when what he was was struggling and feeling like he was bagging his head against a brick wall.

I'm sure as the DC get older more of the drive is going to have to come from them - but I don't think I'd ever be happy for them not to do O.K. at the G.C.S.E level - above C for everything/most things- as it is fairly basic level. Once past that point is really is on them.

Our attitude is still label pushy by our families and by locals who find out what we do.

I was not class that as pushy Loa to me that all seems like sensible parenting.

I hope it is toobreathless

However I do wonder at times when I'm fighting, bribing or trying to cajole them to do 10-20 minutes in the morning and 30 minutes after 6 hours of school plus the readings, spellings and what ever else like project work the school sends home and then finding the right moment to suggest music pratcise on top.

Neither DH or I did any homework till we got to secondary school.

Habba, if you are going to make erroneous, personal assumptions about my social class and accuse me of prejudice, them you had better be able to point out exactly what I said which is indicative of prejudice.

And, referring back to the last thread, I'm not having a conversation with my real life friends. I'm having a conversation on line - where lots of people, including the OP, have expressed the opinion that learning a musical instrument will give their DCs a strategic advantage when it comes to Oxbridge and applications to middle class professional jobs. I have taken the posters on this thread at their word, and if they express those opinions, then I believe that those are their opinions - so why demand that I should point to other examples from my personal life as well? Those views have been expressed repeatedly in this thread.

All that I have done is point out that this kind of pushy parenting is bound up with class anxiety, is ultimately focused on attempting to ensure that kids enter a certain class arena, and has the knock-on effect of contributing to a hysteria about the 'competitiveness' of Oxbridge/professional job entry, which may well put people from a less privileged background off.

There's nothing particularly new about what I'm saying. I'm sure it's not news to anyone. I just think it's worth placing discussions of this type of pushy parenting in its wider social context - as we should all do with our behaviour from time to time.

So again, if you are going to accuse me of prejudice, you'd better be able to substantiate it.

Heads - so your generalisations observations about 'most MC parents' are based on a few posters here on this thread?

We're not talking about 'most MC parents'. We're talking about a specific type of pushy parenting, advocated by the OP and others on the thread, and all my comments relate to that.

Most parents are not pushy. Most MC parents are not pushy. And for what it's worth, most of the kids at Oxbridge have not been pushed in the way that the OP thinks is so valuable.

Again, can you point me to the prejudice I've displayed, please?

Heads -I love how you make authoritative statements about 'most' people. I only know a handful of Oxbridge alumni so I wouldnt presume to know what most Oxbridge students are like.

Ok, most of the kids have not been pushed in the way that the OP thinks is so valuable. In other words, you are no longer claiming that most MC parents subscribe to this pushy parenting style and that it is only a minority which is the point that I was trying to make. I'm glad to see that you finally agree with me.

But most parents aren't pushy, are they? Whatever class they identify themselves with. And my experience of Oxbridge is that most students have not been pushed in the way that the OP advocates. You want me to draw on my personal experience - there it is.

Also, I never at any point said that most MC parents practise this parenting style. Never. Go back and read my posts if you want to find it, because it's not there.

Yes, it is a minority of parents who practise this parenting style - but the parenting style itself has come to prominence in the wake of widened access to higher education, and I think that it is deeply bound up with anxieties to do with class, and has the knock on effect of discouraging students with less cultural capital from applying to prestigious universities and professions.

Don't accuse me of prejudice I don't hold, and don't accuse me of making generalisations I never made.

Why are you so concerned about what a minority of parents get up to? Being a minority their impact is minimal.

That's the thing. Unfortunately, I don't think the impact really is minimal. It is disproportionate to the relatively small number of parents who parent in this way. Especially when the anxiety of pushy parents with this focus in mind is whipped up by institutions who have a vested interest in (or a thoughtless habit of) whipping up that anxiety. I'm thinking of newspapers who wheel out the same old Oxbridge stories at exam result season. Private schools that market themselves on the basis that the extra-curricular activities they provide will boost kids chance of acceptance at top-rated unis. Revision cramming courses. Universities themselves, who want to retain prestige, and know that they can do so by exaggerating how difficult it is to get in.

Wherever there are anxious, pushy parents who will pull out all the stops to do what they think will get their kids into Oxbridge or certain professions - there is money to be made. And the people making the money will shout loud and hard about how essential their services are. And ultimately, people who have all the talent and ability to go to the same universities, and enter the same professions, can be put off, because they think these opportunities are not for the likes of them.

Besides, I think that extra curricular opportunities like music and sport and whatever else are grand. Just that I think that there are loads of great reasons for pursuing them, and encouraging your kids to do them (as the OP began) primarily because it might enable them to enter a profession ten years later is quite narrow minded and sad - especially for the child, if they pick up that kind of pressure, and it interferes with their actual enjoyment of the music/sport/whatever.

Also, it was the whole point of the thread.

Sorry Heads but I can't seem to get too worked up over a bunch of people who think that learning three instruments is the path to academic and social success. Similarly, if they want to hire a 11+ tutor for 4 years, their money, their choice.

As for people being discouraged from applying to prestigious unis because of the hype, if they are that easily dissuaded then I have to question whether they the 'right material' in the first place.

Anyway, you aren't helping what with all the generalisations about what you yourself admit is a minority.

Well it was the subject of the thread.

Just seems that the entire discussion had, more or less, been framed around what the likely impact of that kind of pushy parenting would be on the child concerned - which is quite right. But I think it's also worth pointing out that that type of pushy parenting, its media profile, and the encouragement it gets from vested interests, has a knock on effect on other children too. I don't see what's unhelpful about pointing that out.

I don't think that the kind of pushing that the OP talked about realistically is likely to guarantee what she wants for her DCs, but parents who do that kind of thing are heavily invested in believing, and suggesting to others, that it will.

It also creates a very narrow set of expectations for children who grow up with that kind of pushy parenting, and there is the risk that, even if they develop all sorts of music and sporting talents, and do well in their exams, if they don't enter a middle class profession, through choice or misfortune, then they have failed. I think that's a real shame.

As for people being discouraged from applying to prestigious unis because of the hype, if they are that easily dissuaded then I have to question whether they the 'right material' in the first place.

I disagree with this. And people in the higher education sector have done a lot of research into the reasons as to why some universities get fewer applicants from 'non-traditional' university backgrounds, and put lot of effort into school visits, outreach programs and so on, to encourage these applicants to apply, and show them that these universities are for people like them. I think they would disagree too.

I'm afraid I can't follow the argument going on, even having read the last few posts, a little bit angels on the head of a pin, but I agree with Heads that there is certainly a grouping of ideas around what constitutes the ideal mc upbringing. DC should learn at least one instrument, play at least one sport, speak at least one language etc etc and that is without all the unspoken expectations of manners, networking, the so called "soft skills."

Whether or not parents encouraging those attributes necessary to acceptance by this grouping = pushy, I don't know.

I think they are doing what is necessary for membership, much as upper ones would be able to balance books on their heads and shoot things.

I have recently (and temporarily) moved from a very very mixed neighbourhood into a wealthy commuter tiny town and been quite startled at what passes as normal for the dc. I used to think mine were reasonably well accomplished but dear lord, how they are lacking.

Hully don't leave it there! What amazing accomplishments do these new superkids have? Would Miss Bingley be impressed?

I think somebody on the other thread suggested that football parents aren't pushy.........wow. Just ......wow!

I think what was said was that nobody had a problem with footy parents. IME there are several tiers of footy parents - the ones who just use the kickabout as an excuse to go to the pub afterwards are fine. I kniw/have known some people with kids in premier league academies (including an extended family member). Those people are scary (including the ex family member). However compared to dance parents they are flumps.

HeadsDown, why do you insist that my kids study music because I think it'll get them to university? They study because they love it, as I said before I threaten to stop music lessons if they misbehave. My 3 year old just asked to start a second instrument and cried because I said he is too small.

My children do music because I believe it enriches their life and they want to do. My daughter just goes to a nursery group class and my son does guitar. I see little point in paying for them to do a second instrument until thye are grade 5 in the first instrument.