..to think there is nothing wrong with being a "pushy" parent (Part 2)

[Xenia]

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/1770750-To-think-that-there-is-nothing-wrong-with-being-a-pushy-mum?pg=40

Just in case anyone wanted to continue the thread which just got too full.

@Heads "it's clear that some hobbies and interests have class associations. ...... recruiters should not approach their evaluation of those achievements with unexamined class assumptions"

I challenge you to make one point without using class as the lynch pin

Its funny how you argue that certain things are 'middle class' activities. You then argue that enlightened employers should ignore these class assumptions. You are the only one making those class assumptions matey.

My office is full of guys who will talk ad nauseum about cricket and rugby during the season. Wall to wall MC alpha males and I never noticed until now

Habba, I'd like to know what you actually disagree with me about with regards to pushy parenting and extra curricular activities?

So far we seem to agree about an awful lot, but you, for some reason, have a real hang up about the fact that I'm pointing out that there are class associations and class concerns at work when it comes to people's perceptions of university admissions and graduate recruitment.

This isn't controversial, and I can't quite see what your massive issue with this is.

I find your constant trolling about class amusing so its hardly a 'massive issue' with me.

That's funny. That's twice you've accused me of trolling, and you've also accused me of 'WC prejudice'.

Do you get this pissed off whenever someone brings up the issue of class in any context?

You mean that you seriously believe this class stuff? In that case apologies for calling you a troll.

In anycase, I'm hardly 'pissed off'. Amused is perhaps a more accurate description. Come on Heads, your assertion that only MC people are into rugby and cricket was funny.

Hi Five! .... Come on dog, don't leave me hanging up there. (got that line from Scrubs last night. Been dying to use it all day)

Has it been pointed out at any point that most of the jobs that our DCs will apply for in future don't currently exist? We're living in an era of incredibly fast technological turnover, and most of what we use/do now will be considered 'legacy' in 5 years. Which is why I'm not overly-worried about DS (7 months).

I'm a head of music and Oxbridge graduate, by the way. Most of the children with whom I was in the National Children's Orchestra are now medics/extremely high-powered professionals their parents were pushier than mine :)

What do you mean 'actually believe in this class stuff'?

You don't think that class is an issue at all?

Sure class is still an issue in today's society. We are a long, long away from an utopian society where sexism, racism and class-ism :) doesn't exist but you seem to see it everywhere.

What do you mean I see it everywhere? We're talking about this one particular issue. I think class plays a role in the aims and desires of many pushy parents. Again, I don't see what's controversial about that.

If you think that parenting, education, and graduate recruitment are totally class-free arenas, then fair enough - though that's a minority view. We obviously disagree. But I said what I wanted to say ages ago, and you've persisted with this line of conversation too, and I've responded with pretty considered replies to your questions - so I don't see how that's trolling, or even seeing class 'everywhere'.

As far as I can see we actually seem to agree about quite a lot, just that you object to bringing class into the conversation, and I think it's reasonable.

Yoko - yes it has.

"What do you mean I see it everywhere?"

You assert that only MC people are into rugby and you ask me why I think that you see it class-ism everywhere?

Look I don't think this is really going anywhere, is it Habba? But for what it's worth, I didn't say that only MC people are into rugby. What I actually said was:

"And not all candidates have equal access to all hobbies and interests. A WC school student will be, in general, less likely to have the opportunity to play rugby at school, or go skiing, or receive intensive cello tuition from a young age. A company who recruits in their own image, and does so by favouring certain activities (as you argued happens, I'm sure you're not guilty of it yourself) may be doing WC candidates a disservice."

Is this not the case?

You laugh at parents who think that playing an instrument gives their DC an advantage. Now you are going on about how WC kids don't have access to intensive cello lessons.

Some bosses favor hiring people who are into competive sports. So what? Are only MC people into competitive sports?

I'm not laughing at anyone.

Like I said, I you've persisted with this conversation, which you apparently don't think is a relevant one anyway. And I only responded because you said that I'd claimed that "only MC people are into rugby", which I never said. I said exactly what I quoted above, and again, I'd ask, is it not the case?

Not all students have the same level of access to the same activities. That's an unfortunate truth. As such, I think it is quite unfair to actively discriminate between candidates on the basis of particular hobbies. I don't actually think it happens that often, but you've argued that it does. Nor do I think that it's a great idea for companies to recruit in their own image.

Personally, I prefer competency based interview structures, and if someone can give me an example of the time they've done X, then I don't care whether the context their example takes place in is organising a XV tour or volunteering in Oxfam.

Again, I don't see what your particular problem is with what I'm saying. If you think that education and graduate recruitment are class free arenas, then that's your perspective, I obviously disagree. You object to bringing class into the discussion, I think it's reasonable. There you go. Do you think this conversation between us is going to go in a particularly productive direction from here?

DS's school hires professional sports teachers to come in and coach water polo, pole vaulting, orienteering, tennis etc. DS also plays three instruments.

But we both agree that in x years time no one will care what sports or instruments he does. So why are you arguing that WC applicants are at a disadvantage because they don't have access to all this extra curriculum stuff?

You can't laugh at MC parents who think that all this stuff gives their DCs an advantage and at the same time lament the fact that WC kids don't have these so called advantages.

As for whether this thread is going in a productive direction, I gave up hope yesterday. I'm at home with a poorly child at the mo and this beats watching Jeremy Kyle on TV.

I agree that in x years time no one will care. But are the one who has said earlier in the thread that this stuff really matters, and that certain extra curriculars do give students an advantage, and drew on your own experience the alpha male recruiters in your organisation recruit in their own image, and that certain activities matter a lot.

I don't think that happens that often, but I do think a lot of pushy parents really worry that it does, which is misguided imo, but I'm not laughing at them. I think that when it does happen, it's undesirable, and should be questioned. I think that in the small number of instances where it does happen, there is a risk that WC candidates might be discriminated against. Some other posters on this thread - not yourself but others - seem to feel pretty ok with this.

And, as I said upthread, my main issue with the roll-on effect of this kind of pushy parenting, is that it can put some WC kids of applying to prestigious universities, because people overestimate the importance of extra-curricular activities in university admissions. Sadly, I have seen this in action.

Yes, I do lament the fact that WC kids don't have the same opportunities I don't think that learning the cello or rowing should give someone an advantage when it comes to entering the workplace, and I think it very rarely does, but the fact remains that they are great, enjoyable activities and experiences, and I think it is a shame that access to many activities is so unequal.

I'm at home with a poorly child at the mo and this beats watching Jeremy Kyle on TV Snap.

Why are you rolling your eyes at all the pushy mums who chauffeur their kids from activity to activity and at the same lament the fact that WC kids don't get to do water polo, pole vaulting or have cello lessons?

.. and at the same time ...

Who said I was rolling my eyes "at all the pushy mums who chauffeur their kids from activity to activity"?

Where have I ever said that doing activities, or lots of them, is a bad idea?

Re pushing for 'Oxbridge'.

DH is an Oxbridge grad and spent fifteen years in increasingly senior admin roles in three different Oxbridge colleges (he started off overseeing admissions and ended up overseeing the academic side of admin generally, which involved a lot of contact with students and parents over various 'pastoral' issues). He has often talked about the huge harm done by pushy parenting - students who are only at Oxbridge because they felt pushed into it; overbearing parents who are absolute horrors to deal with; students who can't cope with the pressure and develop severe emotional problems. He also tells everyone who asks that no one in the Oxbridge admissions process gives a flying fuck whether their dear darling rows or plays the cello or speaks Mandarin. The criteria are very narrowly academic. But as other people have said, the false perception that these things do matter puts off WC candidates.

Can't resist adding that my own background is very 'traditional working class'. All the men in my family were/are tradesmen (bakers, mechanics e.t.c). They were/are all highly skilled, hard-working people. I would be 100% behind DS if that was a pathway he wanted to explore.

" HeadsDownThumbsUp Mon 10-Jun-13 11:18:58

Wow - you openly believe that candidates should be discriminated against for having a working class or regional accent, and that the possibility of social mobility is dependent on their willingness to disguise it! Wow. Just wow."

I didn't say they should be discriminated. I said if you drop your Ts, say haitch or "you was" then that is likely to hold you back in some not all of the better paid careers. It is not very hard to change how you speak so you don't do that. So I am simply advising people to change if that will be to their advantage. If it is a matter of principle that they don't that's up to them. It is no surprise that recruitment agencies now like a first telephone interview to weed people out who on the phone do not sound right and that will be if they are verbally incoherent or a bit thick (and both those things cross all classes of course), or cannot speak about the subject concerned but also possibly about "fit" with the potential employer and way you speak might well come into that.

Clarity of speech is different to having the Queen's English. Good verbal communication is far more than accent; it is the ablity to use the right vocabulary and get your point across succintly.

My children learn music because I believe the short term benefits are worth it. Learning sport or music give an opportunity for failure as well as success. Children learn that if they want to be successful then they need to work at something difficult. Surely it is better to experience failure on the sports field to than to fail GCSEs.

I expect that people who do well at music or sport do well in the work place/ university because they have developed a work ethic. Hobbies also help to develop good social skills

Reallytired.

I totally agree, with the ability to use the right vocabulary and getting your point across succinctly.

Sometimes I let myself down, I try really hard and am so gutted. I have overcome a lot of speech difficulties in my time and have managed public speaking and a Masters level degree. However, in conversation I am out of my comfort zone and a slight stutter develops, I forget the word I want to use and become tongue tied. Then I think I sound stupid and people treat me accordingly and it makes me sad there are so many people like me out there. I think it can hold you back in life if you don't have these skills.

gosh... over the years my children have variously tried, at their request, and given up, at their request: violin, flute, judo, cheer leading, brownies, ballet, riding, tag rugby, football, netball and fuck knows what else.

both are pretty unacademic, as are DH and I, although we are born of (probably) upper MC parents. we used to be rich but are currently poor as the proverbial church mice.

do we win?????