..to think there is nothing wrong with being a "pushy" parent (Part 2)

[Xenia]

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/1770750-To-think-that-there-is-nothing-wrong-with-being-a-pushy-mum?pg=40

Just in case anyone wanted to continue the thread which just got too full.

Incidentally, I don't know a single colleague, either in the UK or internationally, who hopes their kids will follow them

I know a quite a number. But guess that we all get exposed to the downsides of what we do day in day out, and that can take the lustre off an otherwise desirable job. I'm sure we all know people in really well regarded jobs who hate the thought of their kids doing the same thing.

our kids will likely be doing stuff we (or anyone else) haven't even thought of, yet Agree with this entirely, and its another good reason why it's pretty silly to push kids towards one career path or another.

I would say that working in finance is a middle class profession. Where's the controversy there?

I am not 'het up' but I am slightly irritated with the fact that you choose to inject class into everything. I'm surprised that the words 'proletariat' and 'bourgeoisie' hasn't made it into your posts (yet)

Why does placing a conversation about pushy parenting in the context of class irritate you? It's a conversation about a specific issue, I'm hardly injecting "class into everything". It's just there - that's all.

Heads - no, the wrong use of a term can't change it's meaning when it's legally defined. :)

heads - I'm not the one being snide, love, it's you and your persistent use of the term 'middle class' to try and belittle other posters.

I don't think that pushy parenting is a good idea but nor is constantly trying to belittle others which is what you have been doing.

We all get it that you think that some people's world view is infra dig. I don't think you need to keep hammering the point home.

The same words can be used in different contexts and do have different meanings, changed by use. Like I said, that's an entirely different debate.

Again, I don't see what the big fuss is about placing discussion of the kind of pushy parenting the OP was talking about in the context of class. What's the big problem?

What's belittling about overtly acknowledging that class has been part of the conversation so far?

Finance is a middle class profession? . Granted the money is very good but is that enough to make it a MC profession? If money is the sole decider then Premiership footballers must be uber MC.

Premiership footballers - first team players - are part of the financial elite. To pretend otherwise is ridiculous. Things are rather different these days from when Jimmy Hill smashed the maximum wage.

I've said what I wanted to say ages ago - and I don't think anyone is actually in massive disagreement about the substance of what I said, or the issues.

I don't know why you are bothering to pick away at these details - my precise use of the word professions - whether or not finance is a profession - if you'd rather I didn't discuss it any longer.

Seriously, I'd like to know what the controversy is in raising class as an issue in this conversation? Or would you rather just nitpick?

Finance? Years of further training, post-degree qualifications in many cases, professional exams awarded by industry wide bodies, membership of professional associations is required to practise in many areas. It might not be a profession in the old sense, but it's hard to argue that someone working in the City isn't a professional.

Heads - in the original thread you acknowledged that some soccer dads take it to the pushy parent level. So you accept that pushy parenting isn't the sole preserve of the MC. Yet when it suits your argument, pushy parenting becomes the sole preserve of the MGs again.

Why do I get the impression that you are just trolling and that you don't really believe in this proletariat/bourgeoisie stuff that you are spouting?

I don't think I was part of any conversation about soccer dads, sorry. I think you might be thinking of the wrong poster. I'm sure that some are very pushy though.

I think that pushy parenting can take many forms. I don't think that pushy parenting is the preserve of any class or group. But most of this thread has, from the outset, been about a particular type of pushy parenting, which responds to a particular anxiety about Oxbridge/career entry, which I think isn't ultimately useful for the kids in question themselves, and has a knock on effect on other kids, and that there are some class issues in play there. What's so unreasonable about what I've actually had to say?

The educational requirement for a settlement clerk is A levels. Same goes for PC Support. The network guys normally have degrees though. Trainee software developers usually have degrees but once you have the technical experience no one really cares about your qualifications. As for the other job streams most positions just require you to have a clean credit history.

Using your definition, hardly a bunch of professionals

Great - that's fantastic. I'm glad there are a wide variety of jobs in finance with a variety of different entry levels. I don't think it's exactly what the OP has in mind for her DCs though, since she stressed that her DH in finance has an Oxford degree.

Seriously - what is so unreasonable about what I've actually had to say on the issue? All I've really tried to point out is that a lot of pushy parent angst about university admissions/career entry is over the top, and this kind of hysteria fosters the belief that children have to be academically elite and skilled in various extra curricular activities to have good life chances. I don't think any of this is true, but I think there are anxieties about class at work, and that is can have a detrimental effect on other kids perceptions' of their educational and job opportunities. What is your massive problem with this?

What is so unreasonable about what you have to say? Main thing is that your assertions are based on generalisations. The OP said XYZ and that is the basis for your 'most MC parents' assertions.

Anyway, DP is home now so I'm closing down for the night. Happy trolling Heads

Again, I've said nothing anywhere on this thread about 'most MC parents'. At no point have I made a generalisation about 'most MC parents'.

It seems that neither you, or anybody else, is actually pointing out what's unreasonable about what I've said - though you seem to have a big problem with it. I can't see why, personally.

Anyway, we've been having this conversation for a while, and I've no wish to keep reiterating the points I made ages ago, and I don't know why you keep quizzing me on details.

I have as much of a problem with people who sneer at the job/career choices and aspirations of others, as I do with people who micro-manage their kids' homework, or who talk about the process of doing exams in the first person plural, or who force their kids to do music lessons (when they clearly hate this) as some sort of gambit in an educational arms race.

I also have a problem with people who claim that academic achievement doesn't enhance life chances. Because that's just misinformation. However people who believe that doing the work for their kids is going to help them are both misinformed and misguided.

Pushy parenting as it is widely understood to present in the wild is at best ineffective and at worst counter productive. But the issues which prompt some people to indulge in push parenting are real and to deny that is to be a bit foolish. The issues are real, but the pushy parenting response to those issues is not the right one.

I reckon, anyway.

I'm going to bed, Russians, but I'm not sure whether or not that post is aimed at me, so will reply - sorry it it's not. I just want to say that I don't think I've sneered at anyone's careers choices - and hope I haven't given that impression. I don't think there's anything wrong with any job, I'm just dubious about the notion of wanting your DCs to go down a particular career path, of a parent's preference, when they are very young.

who talk about the process of doing exams in the first person plural I've never heard of anyone doing this - that's a bit scary.

I don't claim that academic achievement doesn't enhance life chances, of course it does. I'm just very, very wary of the notion that the driving force behind academic achievement should be a particular educational route/career path. That kind of projection puts a lot of pressure on a child, and I think that trying to 'push' a child to attain in areas that would otherwise be beyond them isn't likely to succeed, and may backfire in the long run.

Like you, I agree that the issues are real, but that pushy parenting is not a useful response.

I don't think we actually disagree on very much.

I do think some of the 'issues' to do with competition etc are often really over-exaggerated though, which is not helpful, and the pushy parenting response can feed back into that anxiety and over-exaggeration.

My children have done a range of activities over the past 17 years.

If I had to pick out the "pushiest" parents, it would probably be football dads and gym mums. I have heard bad things about swimming parents too, but no personal experience. I know some very pushy music parents too, but they tend to be a bit less public- no shouting "Go on, take out that First Violin.........."- more a sort of private intensity.

Pushy (like driven) is a term usually directed against women (never men). Pushy is used by parents whose children are failures or allowed to discover only what they want (i.e. the parents barely send them to school never mind make sure they do homework). Same with "driven" - people who are successful and like what they do particularly if they have breasts rather athan a penis are called driven by those who are life's failures. It is best to ignore the words and just get on with doing best for your child and yourself, whatever that might be given your own personal views of the world. Now it might be sitting in a field meditating for life whilst living in a tent or it might be making sure your six daughters and you are all leading surgeons.

Children tend to do better if they see a model at home of parents who work hard, are reliable, carry on whatever life hits them with and are stoic and good in a crisis. That strength which also comes if you feel good about yourself and are loved is as useful to employers as a string of As (although you need both to get jobs).

There was a classic distinction in the UK between the professions (where work is interesting and somehow above the mucky Victorian rather "common" mill owner) and those merely "in trade". The traditional aristocracy would have dinners with the local professionals - vicar, solicitor, doctor but not those lower down the scale who work in industry. (Of course if you were trying to save your estate from poverty you might have to get your daughter to marry one of these not quite like us rough types who made a fortune with their mills). I am not sure it is the same today but I certainly think work in the professions is interesting and I suspect my grandfather born 1880 (who left school at 12) and built up small estate agency/ auction business was pleased two of his sons were doctors as in those days it would have felt like a step up. Also it is harder to qualify into a profession as most people cannot pass the exams so the pay does tend to be higher.

But if I said I was a WC parent would the responses be different? I am sure a lot of people would say it is wonderful that I got high aspirations for my kids.

High aspirations and pushy are two completely different things. Regardless of class.