To think getting pregnant "accidentally" is not ok

[Buddhagirl]

Conversion with a gf yesterday along the lines of:

Me: i really want to start ttc I wish dh would agree to start sooner
Her: just come off contraception and don't tell him, you will both love the baby and make it work
Me: isn't that unfair and a bit immoral?
Her: loads of people do it, what's the worst that could happen?

I do wonder how many "accidents" are really accidents. I can see how women would want to do this and I'm sure most do cope and it's ok, but surely it's really unfair?

Wouldn't do it myself, but my DH has mentioned that a lot of guys he knows, who were in relationships for 10-15 years, heading into mid/late-thirties, had partners who 'accidentally' conceived.

I'm not advocating it, but if you've been with a woman for 10-15 years, she's getting to the end of her fertile years and you're still telling her you want kids 'some day' but you're 'not ready yet', I can't say I'd really blame her for having an 'accident'...

Also wouldn't blame them for dumping the guy, but that's another debate

Women fought long and hard to control their own reproductive cycle and to force themselves off a continuial cycle of unwanted pregnancies. It is depressing that a small minority seem to want to take that right away from their partners.

ComposHat

Hear hear.

When there is a non barrier method for men I doubt the small minority will be quite so willing to ignore the blantant dishonesty and abuse of trust when a man is falsely claiming to be taking his pill, while he deliberatly creates a little "accident" for his partner.

You are supposed to be able to trust the one you love who says they love you back.

But if they are willing to ride roughshod over your choices by breaking that trust, then that flavour of love is pretty bitter and sour indeed.

I'd rather be alone than "loved" like that.

I think men get away with far too much indecisiveness and women do end up pissing their fertile years away, particularly as we live in a society which encourages women to swallow crap in relationships.

Those women that end up pissng their fertile years away choose to do so. They have every right to leave if they want children and the man is not decisive.... It's their choice and therefore they have to live with the consequences if they miss the boat.. With regards the "society which encourages women to swallow crap in relationships", I can't think of any woman I know that lives their lives like that... You make it sound like we are still living in the 1940s/50s.....

Sex is designed to make babies, if they don't want babies, they can make the choice to leave, have vasectomy, abstain from sex, or choose someone who has decided to be child free or has been sterilized.

First sex is enjoyable its not just about making babies sounds a bit church sermon It's also about intimacy and a whole load of other stuff.. If a woman wants a child then they need to find someone that wants the same thing rather than result to wilfully deceiving their partner... That kind of behaviour just gives all women a bad reputation....

if both parties know that contraception is not being used, fine. If there is then an unplanned pregnancy both are responsible.

if the man thinks contraception is being used and the woman has stopped doing so without telling him, not fine. Deceitful, juvenile, treacherous and disgusting. That's not misogyny, it is fact.

and of course it would be the same if the man had poked holes in the condom or lied about having a vasectomy.

as for your silly little pal - the worst that could happen is that a child is born that is unwanted by its father and the relationship breaks up because the man can no longer trust the woman.

Little - penis in vagina sexual intercourse is the only sexual act that can result in pregnancy. There are plenty of sexual acts/ forms of intimacy which don't.

If a man is having penetrative vaginal intercourse, there is nearly always a chance of pregnancy, even vasectomies have a failure rate. Yet it still seems that there are men out there who are utterly stunned by this fact.

As for men bring indecisive, I would argue that men are allowed to get away with acting like man children more than ever before, hence you have the spectre of men well into their 30's, who still "aren't sure" if they want children.

Also, considering you were up thread gloating about your "friend" and her complete fuckweasel of an ex, cheering on a deadbeat dad means you're not really one to talk about how great women have it now.

Gosh. You need to read my note up thread again.. 1) you will find she is not my friend but a colleague I work with and she was the one gloating about her deception which landed her in the position she's in. I think her behaviour is disgusting and she should be ashamed of herself. BTW, she knows what I think of her behaviour. She asked my opinion and I told her what I thought.. 2) you seem to have very old fashioned views on sex and women in relationships. 3) not sure what kind of men you have associated with in your life but clearly they have left you will a distorted view on men. There are equally the same number of women that have chosen not to have children or to wait (careers etc.) to have children later in life (me, first pregnancy at 37).

As for men been indecisive who's business is it but the individual and their partner whether someone wants a child. You clearly think women should lie and trap men into having children and that their lies should simply be accepted by the men.. if you lie, decieve, cheat then you should be prepared to pay the consequences.. you do the crime you do the time..

I don't think there can ever be any justification for tricking someone into having a baby. Simply because of the effect on the unborn child - who is potentially disadvantaged before he or she is even in the world.

Just as not wanting to be a father is not an excuse for abandoning a child, nor should wanting another a child be an excuse for conceiving a child against a partner's wishes.

Whatever goes on and whichever partner 'loses' though, the child should not be made to suffer and should expect the best from both parents.

these men don't want children but don't want vasectomies.

why?

why?

Possibly for the same reason I didn't get sterlized when I was pretty sure I didn't want children. I left room for a change of heart further on down the line. Which happened.

And I think that is why the majority of childless (so far) people don't choose a permanant solution. Becuase when most of them say "I don't know if I will change my mind in the future" ...they are telling the truth.

I don't get on with hormonal contraception. And I don't fancy the coil, too invasive for my prefernces. So we have always used condoms. By the logic being put forward here DH would have been within his rights to poke holes in it behind my back and overidden my prefernce to wait until I wanted kids. Becuase it's all my own fault really for not have had my tubes tied and leaving room for a change of heart as I got older.

Agree with Carpe

A man (or woman) might definitely not want children right now, but might be reluctant to do something as final as get sterilised in case they change their mind later.

Incidentally, I know a woman who got sterilised at 22 because she was adamant that she didn't want children and she never would, and the pill, coil, etc didn't agree with her. 10 years down the line, she's changed her mind. And her sterilisation can't be reversed, so her only option now is trying to scrape together the money for IVF.

Little - You will not find me saying it is ok for a woman to alter her contraception behind her partner's back. I have not said that, no one here has said that.

However, men and women have different fertility schedules. Hence, a man waiting to be ready to have a child has decades on a woman in a similar situation, yet many men do not seem to realise this.

Therefore, I have no problem with a woman informing her partner: I would like children and so I no longer wish to use contraception. He is in full knowledge of the facts, if this is a dealbreaker he can leave - both parties know where they stand.

Also, I don't how my stating that: men have a responsibility to any child arising from a sexual relationship they have had, regardless of their feelings around the conception of that child, is any way having a distorted view of men.

On the contrary, it shows that I believe men should behave in a decent manner and fulfil their responsibilities.

hence you have the spectre of men well into their 30's, who still "aren't sure" if they want children.

Do you not think that the steady decrease in job security, stratospheric rises in house prices and huge uncertainty has anything to do with some men feeling uneasy to commit to such a huge undertaking?

Hence, a man waiting to be ready to have a child has decades on a woman in a similar situation, yet many men do not seem to realise this.

I think you do men a disservice. I'm sure there are many men that fully understand a woman's biological clock and your suggestion to the contrary is wide of the mark IMHO. Men aren't dilly dallying in spite of women. There may be some that are genuinely petrified with the prospect of becoming a parent but 'getting away with being indecisive' seriously?

Gosh - However, men and women have different fertility schedules. Hence, a man waiting to be ready to have a child has decades on a woman in a similar situation, yet many men do not seem to realise this.

You really give men little ability to have intellectual thought on the subject. Men and women are fully aware of the difference in fertility "schedules". Men don't live in a vacuum! When people say I am not ready for a child, then that's exactly what they mean. Their not saying I am not ready for a child unless you clock nearly runs out.

Therefore, I have no problem with a woman informing her partner: I would like children and so I no longer wish to use contraception. He is in full knowledge of the facts, if this is a dealbreaker he can leave - both parties know where they stand.

I don't understand why any woman would want to bring a child into the world under circumstances were one parent doesn't want to have the child. Surely this only breeds contempt and bitterness by the partner tricked or forced into having a child? It smacks of desperation. If a woman or man wants a child and their partner doesn't or isn't ready then they should go and find someone with similar priorities, not force a life choice on someone they are not ready for.

With regards my comment on your distorted view of men this came from your comments which seem to indicate that we have all these poor, helpless, powerless women pissing their fertility away because of the thoughtless, indecisive men acting like children even when the men clearly communicate to their partners that they are not ready for children. Men aren't stupid or selfish, they make decision that suit their choices in the same way women do. If someone tells me they don't want to do something or they are not ready to do something then I will respect their choice. If this life choice is incompatible with my life choice then I have the power to either leave that situation or accept their decision and stay. But if I do then I have to accept that my choice has consequences and under these circumstances that is a life without the possibility of ever having a child. This is what acting in a decent respectful manner and taking ownership of your responsibility means. No on has a responsibility to give anyone a child if they don't want to..

CarpeVinum - I understand that part. but we are talking about men who aren't taking responsibility for contraception. so:

(and the following is obviously not universal and most men aren't like this)

they don't want (to be responsible) for children
they don't want to be responsible for using contraception
they don't want to make a permanent decision to not have children

if a child results from unprotected sex:

they can generally rely on the mother providing care
they dont have to pay for the child as the CSA is crap
and according to yesterdays news, hundreds of thousands of them don't even see their DC twice per year.

society seems to enable some men to live irresponsible lives, so its no wonder why don't take responsibility for contraception.

there are no consequences for them if a child results.

If you love someone but you know you want something so fundamentally different from them (marriage, children, living overseas etc), why would you try and get them to stay when they are likely to be unhappy?

(thinking of men who don't want children staying with women who do, but it goes for both sides and for some other key "life decisions" too)

Faster Stronger - Exactly!

Of course there are loads of women doing it. There are also loads of men deciding they don't want to live with lying partners and don't want to support kids they didn't want in the first place.

Then women wonder why they're left to look after the kid alone

Samandi - that's not how it works. If the child is biologically his, he has a duty to support it, no it's or buts. The only legal exception of course, is if the mother obtained sperm via a fertility clinic.

And people wonder why this country is full of deadbeat dads. If you made a child, you should provide for and raise the child. To say anything else gives men carte blanche to abandon their children.

samadi - but don't you think there are a lot of people having sex without conctraception....so people who don't want children, create them anyway?

Samandi - that's not how it works. If the child is biologically his, he has a duty to support it, no it's or buts. The only legal exception of course, is if the mother obtained sperm via a fertility clinic.

A legal duty. Personally I don't think men have a moral duty at all to support children they didn't want after being lied to in that way.

but don't you think there are a lot of people having sex without conctraception....so people who don't want children, create them anyway?

Yes, of course

This is a completely different scenario. If you are both having sex without taking precautions then you are equally at fault.

If in a long term relationship a woman on the pill stops taking it without conferring with her partner, then she is the one at fault.

there are no consequences for them if a child results

As we are discussing elsewhere...yes.

But I see that as yet another reason NOT to go for "behind back cessastion of birth control" rather than an argument to support it.

Becuase of the higher risk for the child to be abandoned emotionally, phycially and economically.

Becuase of the higher risk for the child to be abandoned emotionally, phycially and economically.

That is an excellent point. Unfortunately women who do this don't seem to be thinking of the kid, only about themselves and their desire for a child.

It's all extremely selfish.

Samandi - so you would be happy for the child to suffer in order to "punish" the woman? That's some rather twisted morality.

Samandi - so you would be happy for the child to suffer in order to "punish" the woman? That's some rather twisted morality.

WTAF?

It is the WOMAN in this scenario who is punishing the child.

You cannot force a man to take an interest in a child he has made clear - beforehand - that he doesn't want.

I don't know how all these things work financially, but IMO it should be up to the woman to foot the bill (failing that, I suppose, the taxpayer).