To wonder why on earth Troops to Teachers is considered to be a great idea?

[ballinacup]

Before we start, I'm not armed forces bashing, I'm sure there are some troops out there who would make excellent teachers. But why on earth offer a fast track course to troops without a degree?!

It seems like sheer madness, why not offer the fast track course to anyone? Am I missing some glaringly obvious fact that makes it all make sense? Or has Gove got a vision in his head of classrooms running with military precision if he has soldiers at the helm?

Can someone please explain it to me, because I'm genuinely puzzled.

chibi cannot speak for all indies, but for where we know - ie DC school - all teachers have degree in the subject they teach.

Maybe this has been said already but I don't want my kids up close to people who have been trained to blindly obey and kill people. Military life is not normal and I'd distrust anyone attracted to it. Very many ex-soldiers are alcoholic, drug addicts or have mental health problems. I can't think of a group less suited to teaching.

ALannister officers do not have to have a degree. Only those needing a degree level competence to do their job like doctors, dentists, engineers (but not Royal Engineers or Signals).

I agree that Gove is applying a broad brush to it all which is silly, but I also want to try and show people that alot people in the military are not generally shouty beefy arseholes. Of course, there are some, just as there are shouty beefy arseholes in all types of professions!

I don't know about 'without a degree' but we had the best GTP student I have ever seen - and better than a lot of experienced teachers I know - who was an ex army officer from the Paras.

He was calm, quiet and never flustered. After serving in Iraq and Afghanistan his patience and communication skills were superb, even with really challenging pupils. (Secondary). He certainly wasn't parade ground sergeant major shouting - I never heard him raise his voice once. He was fantastic - but he also had a degree in his subject.

Joining thread late - but on Pg 1 Badvoc said 'I can't see many parents happy that their kids are being taught by unqualified people'...

Haven't had time to read all posts - but pupils are constantly taught by 'unqualified people' nowadays, I'm afraid. There is massive teacher unemployment because schools are using unqualified Cover Supervisors, TAs and Supply Teachers who are not qualified to teach. And the majority do not have a degree, either. It is a shit state of affairs. At least ex soldiers will have had some teacher training, by the sound of it, which is more than any of these people have.

Parents should be up in arms about it!

To be fair, he got he idea from the US, where a similar scheme has been up an running without difficulty for years. And Labour are broadly in favour of it too.

UK forces aren't trained to blindly obey. And I don't think foreign forces will be eligible, so that's one worry that can be totally set aside.

I have no problem at all with ex-military personnel becoming teachers as long as they have a degree in the subject they intend to teach. Subject knowledge is one of the teaching standards all teachers have to meet. I was observing a PGCE student who is in the final week of her final placement today. She just doesn't know enough about the subject she is teaching (and it's Drama, ffs - everyone can teach that, right?) and it made a huge difference to her teaching. It was a Year 7 class, and it wasn't so much that they were asking her questions she didn't know the answers to, but her lack of knowledge translated into a lack of confidence/interest/enthusiasm and meant that the lesson was inadequate. Subject knowledge may not be the most important thing (I agree with those posters who said it was about personality) but it is key.

No one should be fast tracked into teaching without the relevant subject-related qualifications.

I haven't read the whole thread, but I think a teacher does need to be qualified in the subject that they are teaching, but I wouldn't be opposed to the idea of an ex army person becoming a teacher - why not? I think it would be good to have more male teachers actually, I think more male role models are needed and I have a lot of respect for anyone who has served in the forces.

He fundamentally misunderstands what outstanding teaching is. Outstanding teachers employ a range of strategies to facilitate learning in subjects they are expert in.
Gove's plans are about imparting a body of knowledge, well at secondary level anyway. Maybe ex service personnel are best suited to do this, while maintaining discipline at the same time. I wonder what Gove makes of the OFSTED outstanding criteria?
I am sure that lots of ex army people would make excellent teachers, but I cannot understand why they should be fast tracked over a doctor, or solicitor, for example.

i would have thought that the solution to schools using people with little/no subject knowledge is not to use even more people with little subject knowledge

Why should ex-military people be given preferential treatment? I have two degrees, in the final year of my phd and I am currently applying to train as a teacher. My subject knowledge is good and I have taught undergrads for the last few years, but I know that doesn't mean I would be a good teacher without the necessary training. If a solider with a degree wants to become a teacher fair enough, but someone with only a basic subject knowledge ie nothing past gcse surely can't teach effectively?

Military people do not obey blindly. A command has to be reasonable and they only kill if to do so would save the life of people or a person directly endangered. They use the same laws of self defence that a civilian can use. Also, they do a tremendous amount of rescuing (Boscastle ring a bell?) and humanitarian aid (Bosnia, Angola etc).

It's terribly sad to think that life in the military is not normal and that very many ex-service people are alcoholics etc. Just think, to have a job helping people and with purpose stops this kind of thing happening.

Admittedly not read the whole thread as so long now, but got so riled at some of the comments I had to have my say.

I am currently 18 years in RAF, I am a senior rank (not officer) and have LOTS of skills necessary in teaching that I have built on throughout my career. I have done NUMEROUS courses where I have learned how to mentor, recognise personalities and how to get the best out of a team and I work on a daily basis with a range of ages from 16 to 55; I have also completed lots of aircraft specific courses for all the different types I've worked on. I may not have a degree, but I am probably a dammed sight more switched on and able to read situations and groups than a 24 year old fresh out of uni.

It pisses me off when people jump straight onto "soldiers, therefore MUST be men, disciplinarians, unable to engage brain before shouting someone down etc".

I actually happen to think it's one of the governments better ideas.

Not sure I'd want my children taught by someone who hadn't gone through the same education that teachers are required to do.

Perhaps once it becomes more than an idea, and I've read a bit more about it, I might change my mind.

what subject would you teach then, monica?

you can get the best out of people, that is great. presumably when you are training them as part of your job as an officer, you are training them to actually do things, not just blindly enthusing and being motivational

And by the way andi123, just because someone is in the forces, it doesn't mean they are not educated having left school with "nothing past GCSE level"

many people in the forces are highly educated and have degrees.

this initiative isn't aimed at them.

can you see, how, just as you need to know about whatever you are training your personnel to do, teachers also need to know stuff to be effective?

stuff beyond just being interesting and getting th best out of people?

I think it's a daft idea. Soldiers with relevant qualifications could do a conversion, or maybe be helped to go through Uni to retrain though.

I also think some of the attitudes on this thread about soldiers and a military life are ill informed and offensive.

Two points from me :)

• my pgce about 8 yrs ago required experience or working with children as a prerequisite for the course: whether as a babysitter, TA, brownie leader, volunteer at a primary for 6mth reading with students, any experience with children really, but it WAS necessary. This was intended to lower the 'drop-out' rate for the course (which was at 25% anyway by the end of the PGCE). I don't know if that is a current requirement of the PGCE but it should be, for everyone, including armed forces personnel.

• PLUS, we are all arguing about armed forces staff, assuming they wanted to become teachers - but WOULD they want to? They see the news just like everyone else, and will have anecdotal stories from friends and relatives who are teachers. They might look for an alternative career - these days teachers are not paid at that well, and there is a world of careers out there - especially if you have industry related experience.

monicalewinski I wasn't suggesting that was necessarily the case, but if everybody else has to have a degree in order to teach why should it be any different for one particular set of people?

I am NOT an officer chibi (as I said); I am an aircraft engineer, (electrician and avionics). I have been an instructor on aircraft to the young guys coming onto the squadron and do "on the job" training almost every day when out with inexperienced people.

I could probably teach Maths or physics as I have progressed these quite far in the course of my career or I could probably do English - we are taught "service writing" as part of promotion courses ie how to write effectively. I could also do mentoring style roles due to the courses I have completed.

This scheme does NOT take someone straight from the forces and plonk them in a school, you have to do teacher training just as everyone else does. I am just mad that the assumption is forces = thick men.

andi not everyone has to have a degree in the subject they want to teach. This is a bugbear for me, as I know lots of people who have done completely unrelated degrees and then short conversion courses to science or maths before a PGCE.

Lots of teachers aren't "straight out of university" (though those are the favoured ones at our benighted institution) The majority of my fellow trainees had varying degrees of life experience, including significant residence abroad. Crap discipline is nothing to do with the teacher, more to do with weasly SLT capitulating in the face of a few hard nuts. Other kids see what is happening and wise up. I love teaching but absolutely hate the way I am made to teach IYSWIM (have superb academic qualifications and bags of experience in the non-teaching world)

maybe we can job swap

i did a lot of advanced maths as a part of my degree, and i have loads of experience teaching all kinds of people

i guess i can teach avionics then

or maybe not, as the things i know wouldn't be relevant.

still, i am v enthusiastic and motivational

Yes that's exactly what I do chibi, skip about all day being "motivational" and thinking I can do everyone elses jobs.

You have missed my point (deliberately?); I am merely saying that the assumption that forces=thick army men really riles me, and that the scheme is not about putting someone straight out of one job into another - there is OBVIOUSLY extra training involved.

Monicalewinski so if someone has a degree in English for example they can just do a quick conversion course and then teach chemistry?! That's crazy, and not my experience. I wanted to teach maths but because I didn't study it at a-level I can't, despite the fact my phd includes lots of advanced level maths.