To wonder why on earth Troops to Teachers is considered to be a great idea?

[ballinacup]

Before we start, I'm not armed forces bashing, I'm sure there are some troops out there who would make excellent teachers. But why on earth offer a fast track course to troops without a degree?!

It seems like sheer madness, why not offer the fast track course to anyone? Am I missing some glaringly obvious fact that makes it all make sense? Or has Gove got a vision in his head of classrooms running with military precision if he has soldiers at the helm?

Can someone please explain it to me, because I'm genuinely puzzled.

[exforcestraineeteacher]

Pit in a FoI request to the DfE if you really want to know :-)

[exforcestraineeteacher]

^^put even - cider and predictive text don't combine well

[LuluJakey1]

exforces I think you are misunderstanding me. I never said you could not join a union. I said academies do not have to honour union negotiated rights/ agreements- national or local, or STPC. It is an entirely different thing.

You can be in a union but effectively, apart from defending you as a member against an allegation r something, your union would have. no negotiation rights if you chose to work in an academy that had decided it would not honour STPC or union agreements. That would be the contract you signed.

You could be in a union but you would have signed a contract that said the academy worked outside of STPC and union agreements. You would then be breaking your contract if you refused to comply with the school requests. eg an academy in W Yorkshire does this and teachers are expected to work throughout the summer holiday period in the academy at the direction of the academy. Their summer term ends a week before the autumn term starts. Children get the 6 week break but not staff. That is the contract they signed. They are not paid more- in fact they are paid less because it also does not operate the national pay scales for teachers.

[exforcestraineeteacher]

Quo

[exforcestraineeteacher]

Quote "Good luck finding a school where the staff are not allowed to be part of a union." How have I misunderstood that?

[Goblinchild]

No, I'll just assume from the lack of trumpeting and statistics that it's another initiative down the pan.
In 30 years of teaching, I've seen that happen quite often.

[exforcestraineeteacher]

Goblinchild - I won't disagree with you there, the military is pretty much in the same plight!

There are not that many people on the initial programme, certainly less than a lot of people would think. However, if it can be proved a success then it could support larger numbers in the future.

There will be no large scale flooding of schools with ex-forces murderers in the next couple of years though

[PiperRose]

It was me that said the thing about the unions. It was in reponse to TusconGirl who said the teaching unions should be broken up.

[PiperRose]

Sorry, if that wasn't clear and I started (another) fight.

[TucsonGirl]

I didn't say the teaching unions should be "broken up". I said they need to be broken, meaning their hold over education needs to be broken. I've no problem with unions defending teachers pay and working conditions, but teachers should not be allowed to dictate educational policy any more than rank and file soldiers be allowed to dictate war strategy.

[andsmile]

It doesn't matter how freaking great the teachers, it's the system that needs to change not those being thrown into it. (apart form the minorty of obviously)

I think troops who are used to working in an efficient and organised system would ge shocked at the lack of this, including the discipline.

[Icimoi]

I'm not even convinced that Gove does think this is such a great idea. What interests him is that Mail and Express readers will think it's a wonderful idea. His main motivator is publicity, getting votes, and strengthening his position in the party. Education itself comes a long, long way down the list.

[andsmile]

I'd love to know which teachers dictated all the fatigue inducing initiatives - I'd be going round to have a word.

Sometimes its not the policy content but the sheer volume of it and frequency of changes that is the protest. OR maybe the lack of resources to implement changes in policy.

I think a lot of MP's have no fucking clue what it is like to teach for 6 hours seeing 150+ faces and names in one day, having to know exactly whrer that kids is, target grade, and individal strageies to get them there. Whilst havign target grade set by external means as the classroom teacher is sidlined in the whole process - their subject knowledge and understanding of the child is irellevant.

[3littlefrogs]

I remember listening to a documentary about teaching in the army. They interviewed lots of young adults who had left school with very poor reading and writing skills. They had all made excellent progress in the army remedial classes.
However - there is a huge difference between a group of children or young adolescents and a group of highly motivated young adults.
I think there are people from all career back grounds who might make good teachers. There is no reason they should not be given a chance to train, but they should do the same training and qualifications as anyone else.
Plenty of people change careers. Most of us have several careers over a life time. It is a necessity now as we all have to combine work and family/caring responsibilities and have to work into our 70s.

[Goblinchild]

Like I said, let them do the training and then be subject to all the same rules, restrictions and assessments that the rest of us are.
What's the issue with that?
Screw up = disciplinary procedures and competency hearings, then out of the profession.

[ScarlettlovesRhett]

A whole year on from this thread initially starting, and posters like MBT1987 are still bleating on about 'trained killers shouldn't be allowed within 100yds of children'.

Bollocks.

Military ethos and core values in their most basic form are Respect, Integrity, Service before self and Excellence. All good stuff, and something we should all strive for, military or not.

What is unpalatable about that ethos? Where on earth has the idea sprung from that the end goal is to miltarise Britain's children and society?

With regard to 'trained killers' having access to children , should we steralise all members of the armed forces and take their children away?

Absolute shite.

[andsmile]

I agree goblinchild

[LuluJakey1]

exforces
Quote "Good luck finding a school where the staff are not allowed to be part of a union." How have I misunderstood that?

How about because I never said it, if you look back.

Quote: Lulu - nobody in my school has ever asked me if I am a union member. If they do ask, it's actually none of their business. Nobody can force anyone to join a union.

This is what you posted, directed at me, and this is why I said you had misunderstood me. I had said nothing about whether or not anyone can join a union. I am well aware of the law relating to trades unions as I am well aware of how they work in Education.

[Horsemad]

It's probably to do with the massive amounts of ex forces personnel who have been made redundant over the past few years. Need to find jobs for them now, don't they?

I wouldn't want some of the idiots in the forces who I've encountered teaching my kids, that's for sure. Conversely, some teachers who are NOT ex forces are unsuitable also.

[exforcestraineeteacher]

Lulu, I apologise but I was tired and slightly under the influence of cider, which may have affected my ability to read/spell

[ScarlettlovesRhett]

Just for up to date info - there's actually not too much to get upset about now; most of the personnel this scheme was directed at (ie those with a trade in the forces, not the 'cannon fodder') are voluntarily leaving in their droves at the moment due to various industries opening up recruiting again.

When a salary of £55k is easily attainable for a technician in various trades (oil & gas, wind farms, rail to name just a few), the appeal of crappy conditions, less amazing pay levels and stroppy attitudes as displayed on this thread have lost their appeal somewhat.

The RAF in particular is haemorrhaging engineers and technicians at the moment - all to private sector.

[exforcestraineeteacher]

Arguably the scheme wasn't aimed at technicians in particular. The amount of engineers on the current cohort is a small percentage - probably because of the big bucks they can earn elsewhere in the world. Hence my earlier comment about nobody doing it for the money. I have taken a substantial drop in salary but I see it as a means to an end; namely finally getting the degree that I was forecast at school to get and having a job that does give me an extreme amount of satisfaction on a daily basis. Yes there is lots of crap to put up with, what job doesn't have that? But to watch a child have that "light bulb" moment with something is a joy to watch.

When I'm sitting all summer researching theory for my next degree assignment my opinion may change though...

[Thaddeus667]

Army training isn't what everybody thinks it is. Even 20 years ago when I was an instructor there wasn't any violence. Its all about values based leadership. I'd do exactly what they did so setting an example.

[Throwingshadeagain]

Zombie thread!