To wonder why on earth Troops to Teachers is considered to be a great idea?

[ballinacup]

Before we start, I'm not armed forces bashing, I'm sure there are some troops out there who would make excellent teachers. But why on earth offer a fast track course to troops without a degree?!

It seems like sheer madness, why not offer the fast track course to anyone? Am I missing some glaringly obvious fact that makes it all make sense? Or has Gove got a vision in his head of classrooms running with military precision if he has soldiers at the helm?

Can someone please explain it to me, because I'm genuinely puzzled.

*Teaching is the skill, subject knowledge less so, - particularly when information is so readily available and not only in people's heads.

Get Instructional Control, break down tasks into small parts, teach in a logical order, building up to higher skills. That's the basis of evidence-based practice.*

Fine, I was being sarky with the Wikipedia comment - sorry about that. But I strongly disagree with you that teaching is about just taking 'readily available information', controlling people, and then organising them to learn the information in small tasks. It sounds incredibly un-imaginative to me.

And I don't think G&T children will get on well with that type of prescriptive approach at all.

Teaching is a skill but IME it's built on a thorough knowledge of and love for your subject. There is nothing on earth more painful than watching someone run a workshop or give a presentation on something they don't know that well.

Children, esp bright ones, can be little buggers. I genuinely think people who don't know their subject will get torn to shreds in the classroom.

Anyhow, I'm off into the sunshine - probably luckily, neither you nor I make educational policy.........

'Teaching is a skill but IME it's built on a thorough knowledge of and love for your subject. There is nothing on earth more painful than watching someone run a workshop or give a presentation on something they don't know that well.'

I absolutely agree with that. How dull. However the teacher should be ultimately an expert on how to access the subjects that the students are interested in and need to learn. Facilitating video link ups with Professors in the field, leading investigative studies etc. That is imo the skill of a teacher. Subject knowledge secondary.

What do you do when Master Genuine G&T knows much more about a subject than you can ever hope to despite your degree? He needs teaching too. Do you give up because you're not 3 steps ahead?

And how do your ensure that the basic research and analysis skills are in place, not to mention communication skills such as reading writing etc. Isn't task analysis essential in order to make sure all the foundation gaps are filled and built up without any gaping holes?

Some people still seem to be trying to push forward the point that many service men and women, (sorry to burst the 'troops' of men in the classroom fantasy ) are well educated and highly skilled. But this is a moot point as nobody is suggesting otherwise. Those who have a degree can already train to teach. This programme is not for those people!!!

This is Gove's little slice of 'back to basics'. discipline and rigour must prevail, and of course if you can command a group of soldiers whilst remaining calm then you can command 30 5yr olds, right?

My HOD is ex-army. So is another member of my department. They are both good teachers. Not because they were military people though. However, the skills they got from their time in the military mean they can turn their hand successfully to other subjects. They are also both graduates.
This shouldn't be seen as either a good or bad idea. It has some good points. How successful will it be? We'll just have to wait and see. I suspect those who wouldn't work would be picked up in training as happens now.

Starlight, what you talk about in your second paragraph is basically the difference between two equally qualified people where one imparts their knowledge beautifully and the other simply reproduces it either verbally or in writing.
That's the crucial difference between a good teacher and one not so good. However, we not have to lower the bar by suggesting they don't need to be well qualified in their subject. It may be hard to believe, but a great many of those who can impart are also very well qualified.

The military train under 18s, vulnerable people, recognise learning difficulties and have specially trained people to help with them, are subject to OFSTED inspections, use a variety of learning techniques, shouting is necessary in some environments like outdoors when everyone is spread out (like a PE lesson would be in a school).

My form teacher was ex-RAF in my secondary school and he was fab. . There is mention of no degrees but many of these people have training with civilian accreditation to degree level, but its vocational, like professional cookery, engineering etc.

I imagine there are plenty of military people with degrees who are interested in this career to transition into. They're not all Hunter Davis from it ain't half hot mum.

I am soooo looking forward to the day a big burly ex- soldier finds out that there is NOTHING he can do to make a titchy little Y7 girl do what she is told unless he actually wants to. And seeing his face when she tells him to fuck off.

His daughter has probably already done that

What about the 5 foot 3 size 8 soldier?!

All officers have to have a degree. I can see how this would work in this case. Transitioning people who generally retire at 40-50 into education who otherwise may not have a stable vocation is a good idea, providing they are teacher material.

if this happens i would sell a kidney and send my kids to an independent school, as i cannot imagine that they would ever have someone who, say, had never done any chemistry after GCSE teaching that subject- no matter how inspirational they might be.

if experience in the army is all it takes to osmotically learn academic subjects, then perhaps we ought to draft 4year olds

army personnel with qualifications in the relevant subject are welcome to train, as is any other qualified person who fancies a go. there are a variety varietyof routes in.

the idea that a good teacher is merely someone who can discipline kids and be inspiring is ridiculous- fancy someone reading up on solving differential equations the night before.

Teaching is a craft rather than a profession but it has to be underpinned by education. The best teacher I had at school, private, was ex Navy. He kept a bottle of Bells whisky on his desk but we all got good O Levels because he was incredible. My point earlier was more that the skills are not transferable, not better or worse but different. Without the subject knowledge being already embedded I think it will be very difficult. Teaching involves a lot of EI. After all automatic obedience is expected in the services and as all parents of teenagers know that is not the default setting on the average 14 year old. Nor should it be. I work with some excellent teachers who are ex service but also with the worst teacher I have ever come across who had 22 years in the Army.

Agree about the craft. DC have a teacher - subject is geography, but actually could be anything because the DC love him, respect him. Recent school trip, asked DS2 if he wanted to go - he said, 'Yes, get form in soon, everyone wants to go.' Why?' 'Because Mr X is running it.'. He was a farmer for many years -re-trained as a teacher, the DC love him because he is authentic, and they enjoy his lessons. . He is strict, but fair. If only you could bottle it and sell it...

chibi - you might want to think twice about selling your kidney. There are many teachers in the Independent sector without a traditional teaching qualification (but most are very good[grin})..........

Not sure that selling a kidney to send the kids to private school is going to help. They have absolute freedom over who they employ- and 3 of my DH's best Senior NCOs. (Sgts etc) left the RAF to teach in private schools. No PGCE or any experience teaching under 18s. Now I have no doubt they will be excellent teachers, but probably not want some people on this thread want to hear if they are looking at private schools as means of 'escaping' ex-military teachers....

Cross posts Lapsed .

For those who keep coming back to subject knowledge, what about teachers who are currently training in shortage subjects without a degree in the subject they are training to teach? I know several people currently training in maths and sciences who have degrees in completely unrelated subjects and have done special 9 month conversion courses. To be fair, some teachers with degrees in the subject do not have the required subject knowledge and lots of mistakes are made at A'level.

That said, bringing in even more untrained people will not help.

i could care less about a teaching qualification. i am apparently exactly the kind of weirdo who thinks a maths teacher should have studied maths to a very high level. like, oh, i don't know, degree level.

a person can learn to be enthusaistic, or how to fake it. they can learn classroom management on the job. they cannot learn calculus one day before they teach their class.

i would be very interested in knowing which independent schools are these these which are happy to employ enthusiastic people chock full of life experience (but zero higher academic qualifications) to teach academic subjects

are there very many, does anyone suppose?

my posts are over complicated for some. here is the gist:

i

don't

mind

ex military

BUT

they

need

a

qualification

in the subject

they intend to teach

clearly, if current teachers are not equipped with the subject knowledge to teach a level successfully, this can be remedied by completely removing the need for teachers to have studied their subject to a higher level

really?

He may have got the idea from the film Starship Troopers. If so his next suggestion could be that only soldiers get to vote. I think some of his other ideas were from the Beano and the backs of various cereal packets.

I think people who risk their lives for us should be given all sorts of opportunities and help, but fast track mean 'don't bother with the full training'. I doubt any soldier would want to fight alongside a history teacher who'd had a quick lesson in which way to point the gun.

I agree, chibi. I'm an ex-university academic - I don't see how someone without subject knowledge can teach a child to sufficiently high level to potentially prepare that child for university study in the subject.

How can someone show a passion for a subject they didn't feel driven enough to study themselves either? I know I teach the subjects I genuinely love very differently to those I don't, even though I can put on a good show for those areas I'm less keen on.

I have two degrees and am working towards a masters. I work in an area which is very closely related to the subject I'd love to teach. I also work as a trainer/educator and have taught a gcse equivalent qualification to 16 and 17 year olds.

However I got turned down for teacher training as neither of my two degrees are in the subject I'd like to teach.....though one is very, very close.