To think that there is nothing wrong with being a "pushy" mum

[CliftonGirl]

Just that really. I used to be a "relaxed" mum with DS1 which I regret, but thankfully I switched to a "pushy" mode when he was in year four. As a result he moved from a bottom-middle set to a super selective grammar and doing brilliantly. I am very pushy with the younger DCs.

I've noticed a lot of people on mumsnet think that we are still in the 20th century and you can get to Oxbridge from a mediocre school without much effort. AIBU to think that the world is much more competitive now and there is no choice but to push DC to achieve?

Ps, English is not my first language, so please don't flame me for the spelling mistakes.

And of course you can be even more miserable than you need to be because you feel obligated to support your wife and children in a particular sort of comfort... So even when opportunities do make you happier arrive, the obligations you've created for yourself (even if the others wouldn't wish it, they may not know about it) can you stop you taking them.

pigletmania You've no evidence that BIL is not standing on his own two feet, just that others are paying for things, to me it sounds just as likely that the family are horrified by someone "letting down the side" so our covering up his lack of public status by buying him a car etc. I get the impression Clifton would be unimpressed if he visited on a rusty push bike in his Lidl uniform.

Um, WTF?

I agree variocsveined, in their "chosen vocation" not one that is imposed on you by your parents. Of course I want dcs tomdomthe best they can and to aim high, unfortunately as dd has sn, te type of which this does kind of mean, have to be relaxed and take learning at her pace. If I push her or force her she' switches off or becomes distressed

I'd like to know why, if Clifton thinks that a miserable job is worth it for the money - she isn't working herself.

It seems that she's chosen to eschew the material benefits of working, to follow her dreams of being a SAHM. There's nothing at all wrong this that. But it seems that she wants her children to follow her DH's example, not her own. Odd.

I think there can be quite a lot wrong with being a pushy mother. If the children's motivation is entirely external, if a mother is living through her children, if her love and approval are conditional on certain attainments, that is all a recipe for disaster.

Instilling a strong work ethic in children, having high expectations for them, and giving them opportunities to achieve something on their own are very important, IMO. But that is a far cry from the loony Tiger Mother approach. Read Amy Chua's book for a cautionary tale of how not to raise children.

CliftonGirl, what are your own interests? What do your children see you doing for pleasure? Do they observe you working at something and feeling the satisfaction of accomplishment?

Learning a bit of French vocab along with your children won't hurt (though I would leave the actual language teaching up to the professionals if you only have limited knowledge). And the same for music. But I think your children will be better off in the long run if they actually witness you finding pleasure in your own learning/creating/developing, rather than in studying a few French words just because the children are learning French at school.

I agree Fred. My friend works in a supermarket and s doing very well, worked up from a cashier to a supervisory level

I totally agree with you paper too, it can be a bittoo much to over involve yourself in your children's lives, forgetting yourself as a reason and your own identity

Person doh

ambitious,is an attitude.pushy is usually financially driven eg mandarin/violin/languages
being supportive and nurturing ambition is great and laudable
buying kumpn,classes,tutor is flashing cash and hoping it equates with ambition

CliftonGirl Mon 03-Jun-13 20:57:37
"dh still picks up BIl's bills, pays for his holidays. Dh's parents paid BIl's flat downpayment and bought him a car. All this because BIL is a free spirit and followed his dream of working in a supermarket job. It's nice to follow your dreams when somebody else is paying."

But that is because your dh is choosing to do so. Not because being in a low paid job means you have to be bailed out by relatives. Or do you suppose all supermarket workers are propped up by wealthy relatives?

My dh chose a job that was very badly paid at the time, but it was his dream job. He has always been self sufficient and has never borrowed money from family, he learnt to do without a car and spent 10 years saving up for a mortgage. That is a man I feel safe with, whatever happens financially. Anyone can lose a job, but if they can manage their finances well that will see them through.

Come to think of, all the members of my family are happy with their chosen careers. I can't think of a single one who doesn't enjoy their work. I often wake up with a big smile on my face thinking "I'll get to go to work in 2 hours time". So why should I encourage dc to settle for less?

When I think of my Cambridge contemporaries, the thing we had in common was a genuine interest in the subjects we were studying and a thirst for knowledge, not pushy parents. My parents were supportive and I went to a school that enabled me to access more challenging ideas, but neither pushed in a demanding sense. If you really want your children to have a good chance at getting into a good university (and there are far more than Oxford and Cambridge) then encourage them to continually ask questions and seek answers. An Oxbridge education doesn't guarantee financial success in life. It can be harder to get onto graduate schemes with an Oxbridge 2:2 than a 2:1 from elsewhere. Or your children may decide that they would rather work sane hours than climb to the top of the greasy pole. I have certainly chosen a more relaxed lifestyle over money.

You (general 'you') are being 'supportive' whereas the next person is being 'pushy'

Supportive mum: "You want to drop out of school and become a supermarket checkout assistant? If that is what makes you happy then I fully support you.

Unsupportive mum: "You want to drop out of school and become a supermarket checkout assistant? Do I look like I care?"

And the difference between the two parenting method is?

I don't think it works like that Habba...

But Cory, it doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. I mean I am in a job that I enjoy and I am very well paid.

A lot of people seem to like telling themselves that the people with big houses, kids at private school and an income that support this lifestyle are unhappy with this souless existence and would be much happier if only they worked in Tesco.

The difference can be enormous, Habba.

My db despite being the son of two highly academic parents had no interest in academic subjects and no discernible talent that way. Instead he had a good deal of practical ability and a love of the sea. His parents spent long enough providing him with the opportunities for more academic learning but when it was obvious that this was not going to make him happy and that there was something else he could do well, they supported him and were happy for him. I suspect it made the whole difference between feeling good about himself and feeling a failure.

If they had been the kind of parents who were convinced that anything except a degree from a top university represents failure, he would have spent his whole life in the belief that he was a failure.

There is a difference between supporting your children in their dreams and telling them their dreams aren't good enough. Or, even more sadly, that they are not good enough for the dreams you have for them.

Habba, I don't think that is quite what we are saying. We are just questioning whether it is a good idea for parents to dream their children's dreams for them. I have absolutely nothing against the idea of my children being rich. But it is for them to decide how much money/security/satisfaction/general wellbeing they want out of life and how they are going to ensure that.

I know what you mean, habba. But I also think it's quite healthy to accept you may never earn the big bucks or do what your parents wanted, and it's horrible if your parents aren't able to understand that except in terms of feeling you failed, or they failed to push you.

I think people are falling into a logical fallacy here. Nobody is saying that in order to be happy you have to be poor and undereducated. However they are saying that being rich and educated doesn't automatically make for happiness. And that teaching your children that their personal goals should include being very well paid may close off other avenues for them that they might otherwise have considered.

I don't think one size fits all -kids differ as do circumstances.

My dc are in a school with results across the board in the lowest quintile so I guess given I'm not just sitting back I am a pushy mum.I monitor,ask,ensure high standards are kept(nobody else does),try to lookout for holes and act accordingly.Do I care re a label no not a jot as I know at the end of the day I've done my best and it's my job.

Interestingly I notice friends and family with kids in private or Outstanding state schools are far more relaxed- they can be as they know very little is required of them and are lucky they have the luxury.

I don't think anyone is saying that it's mutually exclusive, Habba. Obviously, if someone has a job they love, and get a good income from, then that's great.

It becomes problematic when parents get hung up on the idea that a prestigious, highly paid job = a successful life, when different people all have very different ideas of success and happiness. Then some, previously high achieving children, who could do anything they choose, feel railroaded into following a career path that's been predetermined for them. Some rebel, and struggle with really strong feelings of guilt and shame. I don't think anyone wants to instill feelings of guilt and shame in their children, but that's what can end up happening if children are pushed down a very specific route from a young age.

"Supportive" parenting, imo, is all about recognising a child's needs and abilities and ambitions, and doing all you can to help them achieve their goals and individual potential - whatever sphere it is in.

Can I ask if your parents choose, or put particular pressure on you to go into the job you do? Or, like most successful people who enjoy their work - did you choose it yourself?

Let us not forget the fun possibility of being poor and overeducated, while we're about it.

Actually, quite important IMO - you can spend a heck of a lot of money on qualifications these days.

That's true LRD. I think it's important not to lead children to believe that academic success (or even just being clever) automatically leads to earning well in the future. It can be quite a hard lesson for young adults to learn - that just because they're smart and got great grades their whole lives - doesn't mean that they're going to be well paid.

I've seen more than a few people get quite distressed at the fact that they are now significantly outearned by peers who were thought to be less high achieving/not as academically gifted.

But they'd probably be even worse off without qualifications.

Dp's sister who has very few qualifications is utterly loaded(had a masseeeeve amount of luck).They work in the same field.Dp has 2 degrees and qualifications coming out of his ears.He may not be loaded but he absolutely wouldn't have the job he has and would be on an awful lot less without half of his qualifications.

His sister's life has little to do with his.

Oh, I don't know blue.

I think it's hard to know whether people would be worse off without qualifications (financially or in any other sense).

I just mean, academic qualifications don't guarantee a well-paid job, and some jobs that look quite prestigious involve fairly long periods of not being well paid (being a med student, for example).

I also doubt it is that easy to guess how the job market will shift in years to come. I know people who were pushed into certain jobs on the belief they would always be super well-paid and super prestigious, and this turned out not to be true.

Exactly - a lot of life is down to luck and circumstances, as well as personal qualities that aren't ever measured at school or university (resilience, networking skills etc).

I don't think anyone is saying that education and qualifications are a bad thing! Just that if parents treat them as if they are a guaranteed admission ticket to a life of luxury, then their DCs may well spend much of their twenties feeling shortchanged, frustrated and confused.