To think that there is nothing wrong with being a "pushy" mum

[CliftonGirl]

Just that really. I used to be a "relaxed" mum with DS1 which I regret, but thankfully I switched to a "pushy" mode when he was in year four. As a result he moved from a bottom-middle set to a super selective grammar and doing brilliantly. I am very pushy with the younger DCs.

I've noticed a lot of people on mumsnet think that we are still in the 20th century and you can get to Oxbridge from a mediocre school without much effort. AIBU to think that the world is much more competitive now and there is no choice but to push DC to achieve?

Ps, English is not my first language, so please don't flame me for the spelling mistakes.

Cory - as I said upthread, people are confusing the two types of pushy parents.

There are some who push their kids to be actors, sportsmen, academics etc despite their DCs either having strong feelings about not wanting to follow that path or not having the talent to follow that path. Those are extreme examples of pushy parenting.

However people seem unable or unwilling to see the difference between these parents and parents who simply want their DCs not to coast or slide.

Blueskiesandbuttercups But very few well paid jobs - basically all of those outside the few where the qualifications are the only entry method (law, medical etc.) - care a jot about your qualifications a few years after you start. The contacts you make, the job skills you learn, the team work, the people skills you have etc. are all the things that decide your progression not the exams you took up to 16,18,21,25 or whatever.

It's very possible that gaining the sort of skills you need to make contacts, learn job skills, work with others etc. are not those you particularly learn by being pushed into getting good grades. Or of course it maybe exactly the way to get a jump on the contacts by sending you to a private school.

Even if your only goal is financial success, focusing on grades is likely a poor choice, but it might be one that gets you a safe but not overly impressive return - as long as you don't mind being a doctor or in finance...

Well my dp would be on a fraction of what he is on without his qualifications and doing something he enjoyed less.

He still smoulders resentment over the way his parents didn't push him and left him to rot in a crap school.His girlfriend's mother pushed him to go to uni a few years down the line and then we had to fund his further qualifications and give up jobs to do so at a tricky time.

If his parents had parented properly it would have saved us a small fortune in loss of earnings,time etc.

Resentment goes both ways believe me.

Not knocking your DP, blue. Sorry if it came across that way.

And yes, I can certainly believe it can go both ways.

Just realized 'knocking' may not have been the most appropriate term there!

Fred my Dp's degrees have got him interviews and then jobs. He is studying at home now to get another language which will increase his earning potential.

Habba, it depends on what you define as coasting and sliding.

Some parents have come on here to suggest that only Oxbridge is an acceptable destination for their children or that a B represent failure. We may assume that for those posters even a very hardworking policeman or able seaman would not satisfy their parental ambition.

I wouldn't want my dc to coast or slide, because I think spending time on something you don't enjoy and doing it badly is a miserable life. But if they did what my brother did: took a manual job and worked their way up and filled a useful function in society, then I would be very proud.

HeadsDown - I chose my own career but that had nothing to do with my dad being 'supportive' and more to do with him being an uneducated man. His ambition for his children was to get an education and then a job in an office.

Also we have friends in higher education who say youngsters leaving uni at the mo don't have a hope re interviews unless they have a first or 2:1- scary!That is pressure and unless kids grow up learning how to push themselves in a reasonable way it's too late to start once they get to uni.There is a balance though.

Starting to wonder how much use a 2:2 which I have is.

...beyond that he didn't feel equipped to influence me in any way.

I would be proud of whatever my dc did if they tried their best,made a living and were happy- sitting back and not ensuring they grow up with a decent work ethic won't provide any of that.

Blues But most of the successful people I know in many careers don't need to "get interviews", they get invited in to chat with the team and offered a job when people know they're looking. I've had one interview in the last 10 years, in that time I've done lots of well paid enjoyable jobs, but I did that interview as a favour for a friend - the friends who get me the other jobs when they know I'm looking for something.

One thing I learnt when growing up was how to push myself - but also what to push myself for. Not pushing myself for exam results I didn't care about wasn't something that held me back, for others it might of course, it depends on your skills, your professions and all sorts - but exam performance is not a sensible place to push, it's such a minor part of career success in a great many situations.

Wow, thread still going.

I hope I can get my children to reach their potential. Whatever that is, is to be discovered while they grow up, are allowed to experiment, are exposed to different things, and all that knowing they can do things wrong, turn around, and still be loved.

Pushy implies that the children would not want to do it for themselves. That's the problem. Sounds negative. Sometimes children have to be "pushed" into a direction they would otherwise not have taken. Then they can either find it interesting and follow that path, or they don't.

Intrinsic motivation cannot be created by pushing and pushing.
Just as grass doesn't grow faster if you pull it.

Exactly, children don't grow a work ethic of their own if they are just pushed into working. Motivation has to be internal to be real.

Aspiration can be created and nurtured, and hard work and perseverance encouraged and praised. But sitting over your child and forcing them to do stuff is not the way to do it.

I recall trying to get my ds to do his spellings like that when he was small and the resulting tantrums. That was me trying to push him (for his own good!). Supporting him to talk to me about why he was struggling and figuring out a way to help was about enabling him to get to where he needed to go. As parents we need to be enabling not pushing. We need to hold our children to account as they get older and letting them know that in life you can't get away with doing the minimum and still expect rewards, but not blackmailing the to think that we won't love them if they don't get to a pot of gold that we've defined for them.

a friend of mine ended up having a breakdown & anorexic because she was made to feel stupid and worthless by her mother who had failed oxbridge aspirations herself. She prefered to be physically beaten rather than mentally abused by her mother who knocked the love of learning out of her. She did go to Oxford but had a breakdown shortly after graduation so hasnt done anything career wise as she is too ill.

Just be careful the way you go about it & accept your child for who they are regardless of the academic success. You would be better off teaching them research & revision skills rayher than spoon feeding them as thats what's lacking amongst higher ed students. All the lecturers that I jnow complain that their students are too .tutored and unable to think independentally.

Thinking again about what I really want for my children; it's an interesting thread to ponder.

Yes, I certainly want work ethic and ambitions- but I also want the kind of joy that comes from learning because it is interesting, stretching yourself because you enjoy your muscles and brain, doing a good job because a good job is worth doing for its own sake.

I would be very sorry to have brought up the kind of person whose work input is in direct proportion to where it will get them and who consider lesser jobs beneath them.

I don't want them to be totally unrealistic in their expectations, but I do want them to have the courage, if they do have a dream, to try for it even if it doesn't make them rich.

I also want them to know that not everybody has to Follow The Dream; or rather, that dreams can have very different content.

So I suppose what they need to know is that they don't have to follow my dream.

In a way, I think it was an even harder shock for my academic and other-worldly parents when their youngest left university to set up a business of his own and proved rather good at investing money. That was probably an even more alien aspiration than that of their eldest son to back large ships into narrow harbours. But they took it in their stride and realised that his dreams were his dreams.

As for the work ethic, we all agree on that, though not necessarily on the way it can be instilled. I am with the poster (TinBox?) who said earlier on the thread that the only way you can do it is by example. If your children see you taking pleasure in going the extra mile, in always trying your best, in always being open to learning, then they will assume that that is what adult life is like. They may rebel against it briefly (yes ds, I'm looking at you) but it will be there at the back of their minds.

Cory - it is clear from your many posts that you place a high priority on the acquisition of cultural capital! There is nothing wrong with that of course. To some extent ambition is a trade off between social, economic and cultural capital - it is hard to max out on all three .

I think the problem is cory that most people don't go the extra mile.

Most people are conservative and content to remain in their comfort zone. Worse still, is the fact that they seem to feel the need to defend it and they do so by attacking those who don't want to live like that.

I had a very pushy mother. She left school at 15, barely literate due to dyslexia and we lived, in poverty, on one of the worst sink estates in Europe.

Based on no evidence whatsoever she decided I was clever and special and was going to live an amazing life.

Not being pretentiously middle class or prone to over analaysing she pushed. Sometimes gently, but sometimes not. When I balked she didn't worry that I wasn't building my own work ethic, because she understood that people sometimes need a good prod.

She was amazing and I have had an amazing life.

Myess, in a way I do, Bonsoir. But for myself: I don't insist that my children have to prioritise in the same way. Hence my posts about my parents who found that exactly half their children shared their priorities and the other half didn't.

My db chose a job that was not high in either economic or social or cultural capital. But it was right for him and he has been very happy doing it. Sounds good to me.

I certainly would not be disappointed if my son decided to become a carpenter as a relative's son did: he is a happy and successful carpenter(as in= builds good houses) and that would be good enough for me. I wouldn't consider his choice a failure because he hasn't got a degree and doesn't go to the opera.

Bonsoir it is always a trade off.

And I think we need to be brutally honest with our DC about it.

I know some parents who are highly ambitious for their DC but not emotionally engaged with them. That sort of pushiness, where parents value their DCs' educational/musical/sporting etc prowess (and devote a lot of money to those things) but do not enjoy their DCs' company, is very risky.

For sure. And a bit joyless for all concerned.

Divorce is usually the end point for those families anyway - years of focusing all energies on publicly recognizable achievement at the expense of personal relationships take their toll.

Well yes, people like that are very cold in all their relationships, including spouses and children! Perhaps that's what really causes the damage? Not the pushing per se, but the coldness?