To think that there is nothing wrong with being a "pushy" mum

[CliftonGirl]

Just that really. I used to be a "relaxed" mum with DS1 which I regret, but thankfully I switched to a "pushy" mode when he was in year four. As a result he moved from a bottom-middle set to a super selective grammar and doing brilliantly. I am very pushy with the younger DCs.

I've noticed a lot of people on mumsnet think that we are still in the 20th century and you can get to Oxbridge from a mediocre school without much effort. AIBU to think that the world is much more competitive now and there is no choice but to push DC to achieve?

Ps, English is not my first language, so please don't flame me for the spelling mistakes.

"Daddy hates his job, but he gets to keep the rest of the family in a particular level of luxury so he keeps doing it" is such a depressing message, even if it's unspoken, any remotely non-stupid child will notice it.

They get daily homework plus music practice. They don't mind it at all, honest.

The point about different definitions of success is really important.

My dad was very pushy - he was a self made kid from a council estate and his definition of success was being a barrister or a surgeon. I spent years trying to be good at science and finally gave up when I applied, aged 13, to an elite science programme and was rejected. I hadn't told my parents I was doing that as I knew the furore it would cause if I failed to get in. I made up my mind then and there to do what I wanted, which for me was studying English at Oxford. I loved it and did well.

My dsis2 never made that leap for herself really. She slogged through 4 years of uni and incurred massive debt and hated it.

Dsis 3 rebelled totally and became a farmer. Dsis 4 is still a uni but will probably graduate with a 2.2 and not get a job in the same area as her degree.

Oxbridge isn't a real place of course, but if it were, it'd be looking for talent and enthusiasm. You can nurture those but not beat them into someone.

I personally believe childhood should be more about emotional and social development than academic.

The best form of learning a child can do is to play with other children

Don't mind it or put up with it because they know it keeps mummy happily/quiet? There is a big difference!

How much time do they get to do what THEY want, not what you tell them they want to do.

Also Clifton, bear in mind your DC may not want a high paying job. I didn't. I work as an academic, which I guess is prestigious-ish, though not like some top lawyer or whatever. Your dc may choose happiness over wealth - it's not like different forms of misery are the only options!

Sadly, not everybody does well at Oxbridge or even other universities simply through working hard.

Ime every year brings a handful of students who are both gifted and hardworking, a larger group who need a kick up the backside, and then one or two students who work harder than anybody and are devastated because they still can't keep up. It is for the latter group that I keep a large box of tissues in my office. What upsets me most is to see how they blame themselves: they have been told there is no excuse for failure and that anyone who works hard enough must succeed, so naturally they feel they have no excuse if it isn't happening.

I have a dd who is physically disabled. Thankfully, nobody spent her school years telling her she should be able to be a ballerina or professional athlete. But I see similar things every year among my students.

Of course it is a bad idea to set your sights too low. But telling yourself that you must succeed at something you may have no natural aptitude for is also a bad idea. I want my children to be able to handle failure.

It must be very difficult to know what experiences are going to have what long-term effects, I guess.

I wasn't allowed to watch TV when I was little (I don't know if 'electronic games' existed). Short term that meant I tended to end up on the edge of things at school when people discussed Blue Peter or Top of the Pops or whatever, and means I still miss the odd reference (you may think this is a good thing!). Long term, I have very crappy ability to follow the plot of a film or TV series. It's possible that's unrelated - who knows? - but if I'd been watching TV from the start, maybe someone would have cottoned on earlier that there was a problem? I don't know.

It would have been a very useful skill to have, especially since these days I am trying to get into teaching English Lit at university and it would help to be good at Shakespeare on film and similar.

I don't mean that as an 'OMG, listen to childless woman's advice and shove your children in front of the box this instant!', I mean, it is really hard to tell how things that are seen as cultural trash might a) be providing some useful social glue, b) be training your brain in ways you didn't expect, and c) become tomorrow's reasonably respectable academic subjects.

The only thing my son will be pushed to do is attend school as that is the law. Anything else is up to him

Thinking about my own childhood and dc's friends, all the girls I have ever known who have developed anorexia have been perfectionists who worked every moment of the day, who could not bear wasting time on anything that is not worthy, who thought anything less than full marks was failure.

My best friend left school halfway through Sixth Form because she realised she was not going to get above Bs and she couldn't cope with the sense of failure. She had various grand schemes that never came to anything, ended up dropping out altogether and worked as a hotel cleaner until she was taken into hospital with severe anorexia. She would have been a lot safer in a dull moderately well paid job.

I don't mean that hard work and ambition are bad things. But they do need to go hand in hand with flexibility and resilience.

As I said in my previous post they DO watch tv during the weekend and play on their ds/ipad/whatever during half term breaks. Don't worry, I hear about "minecraft' every bloody day.

If you must be a 'very pushy' mother just as the OP claims to be in her opening post then I suggest you do you very best to hide it from your DCs. It would be awful for children to think they were 'failures' if they didnt meet their mothers expectations.

I want my kids to achieve what they want to achieve for themselves.. I would hate for them to do something in order to please me.

Op it isn't about what you want, it's about what your dc wants and makes tem happy. there is a middle ground, to be happy in your job and earning a decent salary be it a plumber, or a scientist. I think that you are living your dens and ambitions through your children, that is wrong. Carry on like this and tey may well burn out in teir teens. Come back here in 10 years time and say what you are saying.

clifton - yes, honestly, I wasn't trying to say 'you must make them watch TV', I was trying to suggest that it must be tricky to know which things to encourage and which to discourage.

I've told this one before: my highly academic parents had 4 children. Two went to university and eventually became academics, one went to vocational college and then took a manual job, and one dropped out of university after his first term to start his own business. We have all been happy with our choices. We all get up in the morning happy at the thought that we are each going to get to do the work that suits us. Not bad going.

I know a 50 year old Doctor who only became a Doctor because of his parents. He hates his job and still blames his parents after all these years.

What a pathetic whinger.

OP, I don't think you're excessive, although formal music lessons at 3 may be counter-productive. 7 is the ideal age to start: their fingers are more supple and co-ordinated, and- just as importantly, they have more mental and emotional maturity.

My daughter will be bilingual and will probably need more input growing up to ensure that her English is as good as her language of schooling / friendships, etc. I will encourage her in all her pursuits and look forward to discovering her strengths. I'd love it if she were musical and a linguist, but we have a lot of mathematicians and scientists in the family, so I may have to make up my mind to the fact that I won't be able to help her with her homework beyond Year 9.

Dreams doh typing on my I pad is a blooming nightmare. My dh were like you, dh dad is a doctor and tey wanted him to study Dentisty, his brother to be an Architect and hs sister to be a lawyer. They all did their own thing as teens and dh Is a software engineer earning a decent salary, nota dentist, but he's happy and in a job he loves, dh brother gained an Oxbridge Msc MBA and is in Finance which he loves, not In Architecture. Your Chidren will make thir own minds up when they are older and teir is not a lot you can do

That's really nice. And impressive of your parents.

themaltscat
I know a 50 year old doctor........and still blames his parents after all these years

What a pathetic whinger

He isn't a whinger at all. He is a great guy. I don't think you have any call to be so rude about him without knowing him. He mentioned it in conversation that's all. It struck me as sad.

"Daddy hates his job, but he gets to keep the rest of the family in a particular level of luxury so he keeps doing it" is such a depressing message, even if it's unspoken, any remotely non-stupid child will notice it

^^ This. I also liked you said DS wants to be 'something useful like his father' who you said works in finance. Many, many people would not think that was a useful career. Highly lucrative maybe, but not useful.

Cory I have those students too, they have been taught that if you just try and try and try and work really hard, you will succeed. And, they have to some extent; it got them into university. But even if you work really really hard there, it doesn't get you a first on its own and that's what they find difficult, and they do get upset.

There has to be a middle way -and to a large extent it depends on the child's motivation and talent as well.

I always thought I was pushy. Just found out I'm not

Unconditional love is a number one priority, but for me also the promise to always give your best. My children do that, and then I can usually praise the outcome.

Their happiness is very important. And finding things in life that make them happy. For 2 of my 3 that's music. They love it. I love it when they play. I show them how they can practise so they get better and they do it.

I grew up in a household where anything but an A wasn't worth mentioning. Awful. Nice if you have kids who are brilliant at everything, but many aren't.

My children go to very selective grammars and I never check their work, unless they want me to. It's their work.
I did give them extra input at primary level because they were bored. But since secondary the school can do the pushing and I can be the leveling force - telling them that exams aren't everything.

I had a "pushy" mother. I ended up failing my O level maths mock at age 13 (I got 9%) and basically gave up work after that, as I was clearly already a failure, not taking my maths exam two years early. I had really just had enough by that point - I was taught to read at 2, started French at 3, Latin at 9, Pythagoras at 6... you get the picture. I also gave up at that point because I had been pushed too much for too long.

I managed to get through my O levels, cocked up my A levels - she said "What am I going to do now? I told everyone you were going to university."
I managed to get onto a graduate training scheme just with my crappy A levels (the only non graduate to do so), and have done well in my chosen career since then - better than a lot of my contemporaries who went to university. Unfortunately, the lack of degree means it's virtually impossible for me to change career, and financial circumstances mean I can't retrain/go to uni now. And my relationship with my mother is not what you would call easy...