To think that there is nothing wrong with being a "pushy" mum

[CliftonGirl]

Just that really. I used to be a "relaxed" mum with DS1 which I regret, but thankfully I switched to a "pushy" mode when he was in year four. As a result he moved from a bottom-middle set to a super selective grammar and doing brilliantly. I am very pushy with the younger DCs.

I've noticed a lot of people on mumsnet think that we are still in the 20th century and you can get to Oxbridge from a mediocre school without much effort. AIBU to think that the world is much more competitive now and there is no choice but to push DC to achieve?

Ps, English is not my first language, so please don't flame me for the spelling mistakes.

If forced to make any predictions I'd probably say that my parental style is the losing formula. Because I do worry, on occasion......but then I lose my fleeting arsedness and just waft off (mentally) to worrying about something else.

1. Best to encourage children to get good qualifications and ideally a degree from a good place (even teen super models and Harry Potter actresses know that it is wise as early promise often does not lead to riches). So if they want to be an artist - fine but get PPE from Oxford or whatever under your belt and that is a useful safety net or whatever).

1. If they have a very low IQ and/or nothing will persuade them to work at school give them a very wide range of things they can be good at and feel good about themselves so they have lots of choices in life.

One of my teenagers last week said he might leave school at 16. I am laughing as I type this.. I told him about that US boy D?Aloisio who sold his mobile start up to Yahoo for $30m. I also mentioned someone we know how left private school at 16 and has rather struggled since in a career where he is unlikely to do well. In other words I was my usual open to all ideas person about it... then they told me they were just joking and he did not really want to leave at 16. Now I suspect had I said no way is a child of mine leaving at 16 (no one has left school and gone to work in the family I think for 2 or 3 generations - 100% gone on to further education/ university) that might have made someone serious about it want to do that as most normal teenagers often want the opposite of what their parents want and good for them for being their own people.

Oh Absy - my mother definitely wanted a completely different kind of daughter. No matter what successes you have in your life, being a disappointment to your parent makes you feel like a failure. I so don't want my own dd to ever think that.

I've mostly made peace with it

Anast, I think it's about taking reasonable decisions when they are little but always being aware that at a later stage they will be the ones deciding.

And frankly, there are very few decisions to be taken regarding a 7yo that will decide irrevocably and once and for all whether he goes to Oxbridge or not 12 years later.

You don't have to have Oxbridge in mind, or indeed anything in mind to insist that they listen to their teacher and do their homework; those are good things in themselves and will be equally valuable whether the dc eventually decide to go for Oxbridge or to start a carpentering firm.

Learning Russian is a good thing in itself: it will help them to have fun and communicate with you now.

If you can see learning and a work ethic as valuable things in themselves rather than as aids to achieve a goal you have predetermined, then it will be much easier for you not feel your time has been wasted if they turn out to have totally different (but possibly equally valid) plans.

For mine, it's not a typical (I suppose) wanting a different child kind of scenario, you know like a showbiz mom wanting her kid to star in movies, and kid just wants to pick their nose and play with lego.
My mom wants a daughter who's very quiet, wants to be a SAHM, wants to spend lots of time with their parents, maybe be a nursery teacher for a few years then settle down to have a family kind of person. Instead, she got a quite ballsy, driven daughter who ended up working in the City. She's always complaining about "career women" and views any woman who is successful/senior with deep suspicion. And she gave birth to one. It seriously freaks her out.

Xenia Fri 07-Jun-13 10:35:04
"1. Best to encourage children to get good qualifications and ideally a degree from a good place (even teen super models and Harry Potter actresses know that it is wise as early promise often does not lead to riches). So if they want to be an artist - fine but get PPE from Oxford or whatever under your belt and that is a useful safety net or whatever).

1. If they have a very low IQ and/or nothing will persuade them to work at school give them a very wide range of things they can be good at and feel good about themselves so they have lots of choices in life."

This seems like good advice to me.

It's about the positives, making the most of what you have, keeping options open, not selling yourself short.

(if you are going into acting it is probably harder now to go down the university route, eschewing stage school, as previous generations did, but otoh stage schools do now offer degree programmes)

Anast - I think for the learning Russian, that's not being pushy (in a negative sense), that's more knowing what is best for your children and them not necessarily being aware of it now. For friends of mine who's parents had different native tongues and insisted on them learning it, really appreciate it now (though they hated it as kids). Trying to pick up a language when you're an adult is much MUCH harder than learning it as a child, and it lays a foundation should they want to take it up again when they're older. I had to learn Afrikaans from the age of 6 (school, not parents) and hated it, but I can still speak it (to a degree) and it gave me the foundations to be able to learn other languages I was more interested. (Afrikaans is probably one of the least useful languages ever).

Absy - I had a feeling it would be a similar case. my mother left school at 15 - she wanted me to leave at 16, get a 'good' job in and office somewhere, get married pdq, live down the road, and dedicate myself to shopping with her and home-making. Instead I was very bookish, eccentric, academic, unsettled, moved all over the world and married, almost reluctantly, at 35. As she said herself, she wished I could be 'more normal'. After all, why be happy, when you could be normal......??

I confess I am very academically myself driven but I don't want to make the same mistakes in reverse with my own dd. Sometimes though, I don't know what to do for the best. I totally agree with pp who talked about teaching them how to learn to delay gratification and generally work towards their goals, whatever they might be.

What a shame there is no edit function for typing

Yes, teaching them to delay gratification and work to goals is very good.
no languages loads of children around here speak their parent's mother tongue at home exclusively and English at school. If the parent who is Russian etc only ever speaks to the child in Russian from birth that must be the best way to learn it and will not be an effort for the child and then have a bit of weekend language school to help out. My daughter's friend spent every summer in Poland with her grandparents so her polish was always pretty good. My mother had words in French around the house against the item concerned when we were at primary school and we all did some languages at school.

I would add a number 3 to my list - read to your young children every night in bed (and indeed sing to them if you can too).

I not only sing, I perform a brief yet touching scene from each major ballet in turn, apart from The Nutcracker which I disallow on the grounds of unfeasibility and frivolity.

I used to sing areas from operas to DS on car journeys.It was working very well until he learned to speak and asked me very politely not to "sing at him".
Turned out he had a perfect pitch unlike myself.

PS. However a threat of my bursting into a song unless he continues with his practice works every time to my advantage.

I think the 'degree from the good place' may be less important in the future rather than more important. The innovative and forward thinking companies want street smarts and know how, those that can work with a team and who are free thinkers. I went to a talk recently (a big company) key guy there admitted to us all he had a 2:2 from Bournemouth Poly :) (A few raised eyebrows). He said the company were smart enough to know that he had the requisite skill set. Often it's about getting that interview in the first place. Depends too on the job of course.

my dd begs me not to sing

My DC were all word (and note) perfect on Ossies Dream before they were 18 months old. Certainly my proudest achievement as a mum and unlikely to be topped.

I'm unconvinced Hamish and certainly won't be pushing mine towards Bournemouth Poly anytime soon. Even though I like Bournemouth a lot.

Caveat: I think watching The Apprentice recently might be helping colour my views.

I think we all probably know someone who has made a very good go of their life wihtout qualifications. Or qualifications from somehwere less than stellar...but...they are fewer in number than those who do have good qualifications from a well regarded establishment.

So whilst there are always more ways to skin a cat than the obvious, the obvious one usually remains the best option if you can use it!

Hamish - my first boss said something similar to me ie street smarts was more important than qualifications. I had to remind him that he got HR to advertise for a graduate with a good honours degree in x. No mention of 'street smarts ' in the job requirement that he helped put together :)

Although there are lots of anecdotes out there about mail room boys who go onto become CEO for example, the reality is that there are so many people chasing so few graduate level jobs that employers often cull those with degrees from less than stellar unis, followed by those who don't have a 1st or a 2i. Only then will they look at the individual's cv in detail.

If your CV doesn't survive the initial culling process then all the street smarts and people/team skills isnt going to make a difference.

Hamish - your forward thinking company comment reminded me of a program I watched about Google. Their employees came in all shapes and sizes from cool sport jock/ prom queen types to nerdy types. What was common though was that they were all grads from MIT, Caltech and other prestigious unis.

Funny you mentioned Google, Habba. Their hires & those that hold the best positions etc - IME - not all from prestigious Unis - some even from Bournemouth allegedly :). I've met a few. So the programme may have been more honest than you realised.

Habba that's definitely not true. I personally know someone from my university who works as an engineer in the autonomous vehicle team. We graduated from the University of Auckland, NZ. It's definitely not that prestigious.

I also know someone from my postdoc who now works for google uk. Not sure what he does. His PhD is from the university of Hong Kong. Don't know how it compares to Auckland. But no way it's MIT/Harvard.

The one working for Google UK is a software engineer. I do know what he works in, but not the product division.

Though I'm not sure Google would hire that street smart guy, at least in engineering positions. I've done their interviews and it's crazy hard. And in no way it tests your emotional intelligence or soft skills. I was given a logic examine. I can't remember the questions, but it's something along the lines of doing divisions. I failed at it absymally.

I should have prepped for it but I was invited to apply and stupidly didn't realise how hard they would be. But it prepared me for when I really want to look for a new job though. I studied up all sorts of ways to things like how to calculate what day 100 days from today is.

You don't get to round 2 without passing the technical tests I found. I think that's when they look at how you fit the team.