To think that there is nothing wrong with being a "pushy" mum

[CliftonGirl]

Just that really. I used to be a "relaxed" mum with DS1 which I regret, but thankfully I switched to a "pushy" mode when he was in year four. As a result he moved from a bottom-middle set to a super selective grammar and doing brilliantly. I am very pushy with the younger DCs.

I've noticed a lot of people on mumsnet think that we are still in the 20th century and you can get to Oxbridge from a mediocre school without much effort. AIBU to think that the world is much more competitive now and there is no choice but to push DC to achieve?

Ps, English is not my first language, so please don't flame me for the spelling mistakes.

Hully - I most definitely started out knowing what I wanted for DD's bilingualism (high standard monolingual-level mastery at the end of primary school of both her languages) and if I hadn't had a plan, it wouldn't have happened (I am surrounded by examples of parents who do free-range plurilingualism and results are always suboptimal).

Hullygully Fri 07-Jun-13 08:47:16
"Don't you just look at what you've got and then work with it to produce the best results possible for it?

Are their parents who genuinely start with what they want and then try and squash kids to fit it?"

I have come across a couple of cases lately of parents who were so fixated on their own dream that they genuinely did not seem to see the child that was before them. It has worried me.

Word - I think DS has probably benefitted from the fact that I have several friends in the audio book/audio drama world. The idea of listening to an audio book in his room isn't wierd to him (or any of the kids actually, although the girls do it less) because he started at a pretty young age - so moving from Dr Who and H2G2 and bleak expectations to the classics hasn't been a huge step for him.

Laziness etc - that's what I mean by training. You have to teach the benefits of delayed gratification, how to study, why to study etc etc. That's not being pushy, that's giving someone the necessary tools for the job.

When my twins were born prem we could all only survive our days! Planning went out of the window. But once we ahieved normality (or near as we can do in our house) I did begin to formulate. For one, I did want them to do well academically and acted accordingly.

I think the "right" kind of pushy parent is not necessary concerned with the end result/achievement. I think the most important part of growing up is to learn : how to to learn (learning is a skill), to work, to deal with difficulties, to enjoy results of your work. To me the most desirable outcome of child-rearing is a child who has choices open to them in life and tools to achieve them should they chose to. What they call , capable of making "informed decisions" in life. They should know how to work hard in order to achieve and can cope with failure. It is not about living up to parent's expectations.

My approach comes from experience. My parents were a bit rubbish (not their fault) and once I had been got into grammar school that was the end of input. I have got somewhere reasonably worth getting to, but I know had I had access to and awareness of the possibilities of the world, I'd be world dictator by now. Or similar.

So I try and facilitate and help and encourage my dc as much as poss.

So what would you have done, wordfactory, if you had had one dc like my youngest brother who had shown unusual practical skills and interests from a very young age?

Would you have decided he had to concentrate on doing well academically and go to university or would you have let him take his own course and encouraged the kind of learning he was naturally drawn to?

I am course looking at this with the hindsight of my db's very successful and happy career, which was (it seems to me) dependent on the fact his our parents recognised from an early age that he was different from their expectations and did everything to facilitate what he wanted (and was clearly able to do) rather than what they had expected.

sorry about awful typing there: "dependent on the fact that his parents recognised"

Cory-i don't think anyone need or indeed should concentrate solely on academic skills! My DC do all manner of things besiads school work. DD too much probably! Had practical skills manifested themselves early on I dare say I would have embraced them alongside. I certainly embraced the other things my DC took an interest in - singing, football, cross country you name it!

Mango posted: "IMO there's a huge difference between being pushy and being supportive:a supportive mum helps her children with homework, encourages them to aim high and have a clear vision of their hopes for the future and will help her children in any and every way possible to achieve this. A pushy mum forces her children to do extra work"

But this is your definition of being pushy. A lot of self defined pushy mums would fall into the category of 'supportive'. That is why this type of debate is pointless. We all have different definitions of 'pushy' and we each argue/defend our definition.

Upthread for example a poster rolled her eyes at pushy mums. She the went on about her prepping her DC for the 11+ and the tutor that she hired and the research that she did. I live near Luton and and around here she would be the pushy mum that everyone rolls their eyes at.

One poster rolled her eyes and then went on to say she did extra maths with her fiv year old! You gotta laugh!

I meant a bit more than letting them have hobbies and a balanced life, wordfactory.

I meant if you had a dc who showed from a very early age that the practical side of their life was actually their vocation.

A dc who wanted to spend all their spare time mending domestic equipment or designing computer programmes, and whose talents clearly lay in this field rather than in English or maths.

A dc who wanted to either go to a vocational college after school (like my dn, now running a successful carpenter firm) or set up their own business instead of going to university (like my db).

In short, a dc who wanted to prioritise something other than academic studies.

I don't really think of 99% of what people are saying on this thread as 'pushy'. Pushing, to me, means pushing yours forward and someone else's down - it means arguing when your child doesn't get on the team, it means making them do ballet and sport and violin &c &C even if they properly hate it (as opposed to the odd week when they whine about practice) because you have a notion that's what a child should do.

That's the million dollar question - are children born or made? I suspect we are 50/50 genes and environment.

There is an article in today's Times about successful and luck etc

www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/columnists/article3784715.ece which unless you pay you cannot read, but it is quite interesting.
It includes:
"Carole Dweck, a Stanford psychology professor, has demonstrated that those who believe that success is a matter of luck (genetic and social) are not just more apathetic, but dramatically less resilient. "..
"But should we berate parents who read to their children, who buy them books, who try to give them every possible advantage? These could also be described as acts of nepotism, given that they boost the success of their offspring at the expense of children from bookless homes. But should we ban parents from doing this? Of course not. If we tried to level the playing field we would destroy the instincts that drive human progress.

Mr Bernanke finished his speech by calling on the successful to use their luck to contribute to the betterment of the world. Amen to that. But unless we recognise the role of merit, as well as luck, in success, the world will end up a worse place, not a better one."

I have to agree with TOSN.To me what you describe is silly and wrong.Doing extra math with 5 yo to help them get a solid grasp of it is fine. My dad used to make me do math problems when I was 5. I complained a bit but kind of liked it as well Years later my problem solving skills came very useful in my new career.

'So what would you have done, wordfactory, if you had had one dc like my youngest brother who had shown unusual practical skills and interests from a very young age?

I know that the question wasn't directed at me but I have a nephew who, from an early age, made it clear that he wanted to work in fashion. His parents believed in being supportive parents so they supported him despite being concerned about the viability of his plan

He neglected his GCSEs since he didn't see the relevance of geography, chemistry etc for his chosen career. Being supportive parents my DS and her DH left him to it. Consequently he left school with a small batch of so-so GCSEs. He did some fashion BTEC course I think and then a degree in fashion at some uni that made Thames Valley look like Oxbridge. Today he has £x in student debt and he works as a senior sales assistant in Selfridges.

He may still get his lucky break and make it as a buyer or similar but it is a very competitive industry and each year there is a whole batch of newly qualified grads joining the job market. In the mean time he is £x in debt, earning loose change and doing a job which a school leaver could do and which consist of spending 10% of his day directing tourists to the nearest toilet.

I asked my DS if she would have done anything different. "I would have made sure that he paid more attention to his academics" was her answer. As it was, DN doesn't have much going going for him if he wants to move into fashion/retail management.

My point is this. For each positive anecdote about how some DC was left to follow his dream there is a negative one.

"Don't you just look at what you've got and then work with it to produce the best results possible for it?

Are their parents who genuinely start with what they want and then try and squash kids to fit it?"

Yip. My DM. I remember discussing with her once issues with my manager at work, and said something along the lines of shouldn't a manager identify their managees strengths and weaknesses, and then adapt the way they manage to that, much like adapting parenting style to the child? And she was all "what the hell? No you don't. You have ONE parenting style and that's it". I've always felt (and only recently she's started coming around to the idea that I'm actually a decent person) that my mother wanted a completely different daughter and was shocked with what she got. But she's very un self aware about this. She was telling me the other day about how awesome her father was (which is sweet, she absolutely adored DGF) and said "I always knew with him that I was loved no matter what, isn't that a nice thing to have?" And I was thinking "yes, it would be great to know what that's like".

Habba - on of my DD's had similar start in life including Selfridges :).She then made the most amazing career , have worked for top designers, been headhunted and is running her own business now in the space of 6 years.
Don't give up on your DN yet :)

It's a tricky one, Habba.

Unrealistic dreams don't of course become any less unrealistic if they are dreamt by the child rather than the parent.

I suppose again it comes down to talking to your child, knowing what makes them tick, making it clear everybody has to have a Plan B. But even so encouraging them to come up with Plan B rather than trying to organise their life so fool-proof that no Plan B will ever be required.

In the case of my dn and my db it was not about following an unrealistic dream: it was about their parents knowing them well enough to recognise that for them their plans were actually far more realistic than anything mum or dad might have thought out for them.

My db had unusual talent and business nous from a very young age, but would have been likely to have got a very mediocre degree (which is not a great help in these days when employers look for Firsts and 2:1's).

My dn could no doubt have done well at university had he wanted to but he really did not want to go so would have been unlikely to make the most of it: otoh he had a very clear business plan and well attested practical abilities.

Also, I suppose the difference is that your dn seems to have let everything drop at a very young age and rather drastically. My relatives did better for longer, leaving more of an escape route.

Meh, I've made peace with it and vowed not to be such an arse to my own DCs.

I do like reading about the background of people who are hugely successful - it's very interesting. Condoleeza Rice's autobiography is essentially about her parents, and how much support they gave to her when she was growing up (it's insane, the girl was a semi-professional ice skater, concert pianist etc. etc.) and how instrumental they were.

There was also an article by Rahm Emanuel's brother in Vanity Fair about their upbringing (so one is now Chicago's Mayor, one is a leading biologist and the third is a Hollywood agent and the inspiration for the character Ari Gold in Entourage) and how encouraging their parents were (one liked dancing, so they let him just get on with it).

I completely agree with a lot of comments here, and i myself struggle to find the right balance of 'pushy' vs 'relaxed' with my 2 daughters, but it makes me wonder when people say you need to let children choose what they like, let them see what they enjoy... Whilst i understand that it is important for them to be happy, i can not understand how they can choose when they simply DONT KNOW. How can a 7 year old decide if they want to go to Oxbridge.. or if they want to train to become a doctor?? they dont know what this means, they dont know all the prons and cons at this stage to make a decision, but unfortunately, if they dont study and develop themselves at that young stage as a reasonable pace, by the time they DO decide they want to go to Oxbridge for ex.. it may be too late!
For ex, i am teaching my kids my native russian language .. they dont want to learn as it is hard and why if they can just speak english in school and with friends.. without me being pushy - they will not learn it now... and even if they understand the improtance of it when they are say 10-14 years old, it will be too late to start then or at least much more difficult... so i have to be pushy in this case!

Also, every mum knows that if given the freedom, most kids would spend most of their day watching TV, eating chocolates or other snacks and messing up the house, but this is not what we encourage them to do.. therefore, you HAVE TO be pushy to some extent, and this 'let children do what makes them happy' simply cannot happen..

Well although I'm hugely unpushy in any conventional sense, I'm not prepared to advocate any parenting style as the winning formula until I'm on my deathbed looking back.