To think that there is nothing wrong with being a "pushy" mum

[CliftonGirl]

Just that really. I used to be a "relaxed" mum with DS1 which I regret, but thankfully I switched to a "pushy" mode when he was in year four. As a result he moved from a bottom-middle set to a super selective grammar and doing brilliantly. I am very pushy with the younger DCs.

I've noticed a lot of people on mumsnet think that we are still in the 20th century and you can get to Oxbridge from a mediocre school without much effort. AIBU to think that the world is much more competitive now and there is no choice but to push DC to achieve?

Ps, English is not my first language, so please don't flame me for the spelling mistakes.

Yes, to what Miggsie said but would expand it to "looking to see what your child is good at and wants to do and encouraging them to achieve their potential in that".

It seems pretty clear to me that ds has a talent for acting. Not unsurprising, there have been actors in dh's family and dd is heavily into it. I have tried for years to sell the concept to ds, not least because I think it would do his self esteem good to do something that he was naturally good at. He will have none of it. It is quite simply not something he would like to spend his time on. In the end, I have had to accept that his life is his own; it's not for me to decide what would make him happy.

ReallyTired - sounds like we are pushy in different ways :).
I didn't feel like pushing him into going on a trip despite of him wanting to stay and work. It's not like he doesn't socialize enough - he boards at school for 2 nights a week.
What you are suggesting comes under category 3 : "You will go and enjoy yourself even if you don't want to "

I've started seeing this with friends (who have infants, not school aged children yet, so we'll see) and I'm in shock.

Friend A - don't think she came from a particularly pushy background, but has gone on to be VERY successful and is an incredibly driven person (e.g. pushing for promotion while on Mat leave). Her DC has just turned one, and is already learning Spanish, French and Mandarin in addition to English and Friend A's mother tongue. Is already enrolled in local prep school.
Friend B - also incredibly successful, but says she went to crap schools with little academic focus - more happy go lucky, see how you find yourself kind of thing (her husband is from a prep school/public school/Oxbridge background) and she's already freaking out (DC is also just over 1) about the kid getting into a good high school and going on to Oxbridge.

I desperately want to tell them to calm down - isn't one of the best indicators of a child's success how educated the mother is? Given one's an MBA, the other has a Masters from a top university, I don't think they're screwed. Also, neither of them came from such a background and have managed to go on to be happy, successful people in their own right. I wish they could just enjoy their DCs more and not set them on an uber competitive educational path before they're even potty trained. I don't have DC (yet) and I don't think I'd be the same, but who knows - maybe I'll go a bit nuts and sign them up for baby mandarin in utero, but I hope not.

Well if this thread had started to make me question my pushy philosophy, I met a product of somehting much worse today.

A young man whose Mother was not pushy but precious. She had ensured that throught out his magical childhood he avoided adversity, stress (she was very concerned about stress), competition ...in fact anything approaching difficult.

The result was a frankly ridiculous pampered delusional young man who was following his dream...at the expense of his parents!

I otoh recently met a young man who despite having very obvious SN had been told by his parents that nothing could stand in his way if he only worked hard enough. He was working ridiculously long hours to do work well beyond his capabilities, dosing himself with anti-depressants to cope with the stress. It was pretty obvious that he was set to fail in his ambitions.

I would say both he and wordfactory's young man were delusional, just in different directions.

What was his dream, word?

absy those two babies are not potty trained yet?!
nooooooooo!

Stress is part of living and we need a certain level of stress/ challenge to function well as human beings. Good parents teach children how to cope with stress rather than shield them from stress. There is nothing wrong with having ambitions or even failing with ambitions. Children need opportunity (within reason) to experience (safe) failure and learn from it.

Pushiness is a balance between ensuring a child reaches their natural potential and micro managing your child.

A 5 year old having to "shrink his social life" to make room for practice is is ultra pushy.

My dd has a friend who is enormously musically talented. He is only started to restrict his social life in any serious way when he was about 15/16. And that was an informed choice which he made for himself. And then only before a major concert or audition.A 5 year old cannot do this.

To be honest I'm amused at the very idea of a 5 year old having a "social life".

They play with their friends.

5 year olds do spend enough time with other children at school anyway.
I do not think they necessarily have to be entertained every weekend by organised "social" activities with other children - I sometimes feel that some parents do not know how to spend quality time with their children without having some "social activities" thrown at them. Their children are always bored unless taken out to a party, zoo, cinema,visiting friends, whatever just to avoid having one-to -one time with their parents.That is how we bring up potentially unhappy little consumers who are never satisfied because the entertainment is not in constant supply.Have you ever noticed how many screaming toddlers/crying kids are there in so called "fun activities" type of places? They are overstimulated but not happy/satisfied .
Children who learn from early age to be busy are usually happier as they require less input from the outside and value their free time more.

I think we can all agree that constant planned consumer activities are not good, but I don't see how this is relevant to whether a 5yo should have time to play out of school.

I would have thought spending time on free play would teach you to make your own entertainment and therefore not turn you into a compulsive consumer.

Why is having time with your friends or siblings more likely to turn you into an unhappy consumer than having planned 1:1 activities with your parent?

Seeker.

Some 5 year olds can do this for themselves. I had/ have one like this she is 9 now. Her brothers couldn't motivate themselves in this way from an early age. Some kids are just like that. There are many times I had to organise or suggest down time or explain why she needed to play or rest.
Then you meet other parents at their activities/ hobbies etc and they are at the amount of work and effort your child puts in, and straight away it is assumed you are a pushy mum.

Ime the ones who do best later in life, particularly at university, are the self motivators, the ones who do not have every minute of their day timetabled but are allowed to do their own timetabling for at least some part of the day.

And what if you have more than one child: do you really not want them to spend time playing together? I can't think of anything that has been more beneficial to my two.

I see what you mean morethanpotatoprints about some children not being good at self motivation. But I would tend to regard that as just another weak area that they need a bit of help with rather than as something that shows they must never be left unorganised. So I would make sure they had some time to get out of their comfort zone and be made to organise themselves. Just as with a shy child, I would sometimes prompt him to make an effort and speak to people.

ReallyTired - exactly my thoughts.Except for "micro-managing" - I think we all do it when they are small? Of cause we micromanage our children - they can't do it themselves. I wonder if parents teaching their kids 3 languages at the age of 1 doing it because they feel they under-achieved / unsatisfied themselves and trying to compensate with their DC?

"I wonder if parents teaching their kids 3 languages at the age of 1 doing it because they feel they under-achieved / unsatisfied themselves and trying to compensate with their DC?"

I've sometimes wondered that too.

What I don't get is, if these parents are not satisfied with their own knowledge, why don't they go and learn something new instead? They're not dead yet (evidently) so why don't they get on with it. My mother did a university course in Slavonic languages when she was pushing 70. She didn't insist that I had to do it for her.

Your mother is a very wise woman :).

Some people see socialising with the right other children as part of the getting on and pushiness too of course. I don't mind if mine never see any friends or see loads of them - entirely up to them.

I can see a longer view as our oldest have all graduated. I think it helps if they have work ethic, expect to go to a good university as they are in a school where everyone does, aim high if that is their inclination. I don't think you can force hobbies on them if they don't like them as they get older. However if you put effort or interest into a child's hobby (or homework) it will tend to get better at that. 3 of course won music scholarships and that will only be because that is where the parents' interests lie, we are pretty good at music and I enjoy accompanying their practice. Had I been into motor racing or tennis they might have been good at that instead, although some of my are sporty so that must be from the school and peer influence I suppose.

I am interested in the skills of some of mine in taking doing the very minimum to get through as an art form which I suspect is because I am fairly laid back in terms of work, don't tutor etc etc. I have huge faith that they will all do well in whatever terms they choose to define well and I feel very privileged to have 5 children from whom I am sure I have learned as much as they have from me.

The MBA etc mothers sometimes had a career they gave up and they make the child a career which a child isn't and that can be a path bound for failure particularly with teenagers who often want to do the opposite of what their parents want. Fulfil your own aims and dreams as a woman rather than giving up on yourself and saying only the next generation can come good.

There are times when I think that I maybe a tad pushy with dd. it is usually when an exam, concert, audition etc is looming and it worries me a bit, especially as we all tend to spend a lot of time together as a family. Sometimes you need to step back and assess.
So last night I was talking to dh after what I thought had been me having a pushy day with dd.
So I mentioned my concerns to dh.
"Do you think I'm a pushy mum?" "No" he replied "You're too lazy"

I agree with a lot of what you've said recently cory. The people who go on to achieve at the university/postgrad/professional level are the self-motivators. Pushy parenting just gets in the way of self-motivating half the time.

Also agree that there is a strong degree of wish fulfilment in pushy over-scheduling. And a parent who pursues their interests and lives out their values is likely to be a much greater motivator in the long term. 'Do as I say, not as I do' is never a very convincing message.

Why is pushy always followed with mum.

" Then you meet other parents at their activities/ hobbies etc and they are at the amount of work and effort your child puts in, and straight away it is assumed you are a pushy mum."

Well, if your 5 year old is not at a party because they haven't finished their music practice, then they are right. You are.

Mum is used because since the Garden of Eden men (and often women) blame women for just about all wrongs on the planet.

The other phrase I do not like is "driven". Men are rarely driven. I don't even know what it means. It usually is used by someone much less successful than I am who wants to criticise someone female who actually has competence at what they do.

"Seeker"

She would have missed many parties for dancing when she was 5 if I had let her. After a while parents started having their dc parties on sunday as several out of dds class danced on saturday.

I would never suggest she missed the party though, even though we have to pay for missed classes, it was one of those things.