To think that there is nothing wrong with being a "pushy" mum

[CliftonGirl]

Just that really. I used to be a "relaxed" mum with DS1 which I regret, but thankfully I switched to a "pushy" mode when he was in year four. As a result he moved from a bottom-middle set to a super selective grammar and doing brilliantly. I am very pushy with the younger DCs.

I've noticed a lot of people on mumsnet think that we are still in the 20th century and you can get to Oxbridge from a mediocre school without much effort. AIBU to think that the world is much more competitive now and there is no choice but to push DC to achieve?

Ps, English is not my first language, so please don't flame me for the spelling mistakes.

Another point is that being determined to see one thing in your child might mean there is something else you do not see.

If my parents had insisted on seeing my youngest brother as academic and made him spend all his time catching up on that, he might not have had the space to develop his very obvious technological talent and therefore missed out on the career that has made him very happy - and considerably more affluent than his more academic siblings.

In his case, time spent mending the washing machine was probably a better investment than time spent on irregular French verbs.

Cory.

I totally agree with your last post. We are all different and have different skills, I think to push a child in the wrong direction is the worst kind of pushiness.
At least if you are going to push make sure it will do them some good in the long term.

I am now off to push my dd to her Piano lesson, choir rehearsal, and then her string group. The ones she would still attend if on her death bed.

"pushy" is an objectionable term

I think there are too many negative examples of people brought up by non-pushy parents who did have a "normal childhood" but failed to learn to work hard, to overcome problems and deal with whatever life throws at them. They do not turn into "happy" adults.
When people talk about "happiness" for children they often mean something else I think - happiness doesn't contradict hard interesting work.

"pushy" is an objectionable term

Not if you live in China :)

the term, not the condition, habba

Perhaps "pushy" being an objectionable term should be reserved for the (objectionable) practice of insisting that your children should follow the route you have mapped out for them?

In which case you can have "anti-academic" pushiness as well. Thinking of several sets of friends who insisted that their (clearly very gifted) dc had to spend their spare time on unskilled jobs instead of revising for exams and who later discouraged them from going on to HE because they wanted them to have "proper" jobs.

These friends were not actually lazy or unengaged or laissez-faire. They didn't want their dc bumming about. They were certainly keen on instilling a work ethic. They just had a very narrow idea of where their children's bests interests might lie.

To me, this seems very similar to insisting that your child has to read for the medical or legal professions even if they show no interest or aptitude. In both cases, it is about parents failing to distinguish between dc's lives and their own.

Happiness doesn't contradict hard interesting work, that is very true. But it possibly does contradict hard work that you do not enjoy and have a sneaking suspicion you are not very good at. Especially if you come to realise there is something else you could have enjoyed and been good at.

"I think there are too many negative examples of people brought up by non-pushy parents"

I on the other hand think there are too many negative examples of people brought up by pushy parents.

I want a different word

or one person's pushy is another person's encouragement

has "pushy" been defined on the thread?

I suggested a definition of "rigidly insisting that your children should follow the route you have mapped out for them", Hully.

When it is nudging a child to do something they would do on their deathbed, as morethanpotatoprints put it, I don't think it can reasonably be called pushiness. Children happily go to football practice every week to be subjected to that kind of pushing.

I have been called "pushy" and accused of denying my youngest DC a "childhood" when he started music lessons at the age of 5.
Mostly when I had to say to other parents that he was not available for a play date, birthday party, or simply they could not damp their kids in my house at the weekend because they were driving them crazy :). Because my DS needed time to practice. Not that I am in any way a tiger mother. I think my DS is much happier then some of those "un-pushed" kids, he never feels "bored" and I never need to invent entertainment for him.
This is not to say he does't ever gets to do fun things, I think he appreciates them more then someone who does it more often. He has learned to get the biggest pleasure from his own achievements - I call that a happy childhood.

I don't think that 'pushy' has been defined on this thread. MNetters with controlling parents tend to have their own definition. MNetters who bug their teenagers to do their homework have their definition. 'Supportive' parents who take their kids to museums, theatres, libraries and the like have their definition.

So how about 'mildly pushy', 'pushy' and 'extreme pushy'?

'mildly pushy' = come on dear. I know its cold and wet but you need to get up and go to your swimming lesson.

'pushy' = how many metres did you do today? We need to work on your stamina a bit more.

'extreme pushy' = You will enjoy swimming and you will win.

"I have been called "pushy" and accused of denying my youngest DC a "childhood" when he started music lessons at the age of 5.
Mostly when I had to say to other parents that he was not available for a play date, birthday party"

It would be interesting to have a league table :) pianomama would be ranked above me. I too started music lessons for DS at the age of 5 but apart from the days leading up to exams, I never blew off social invites. Music was/is a serious-but-fun activity for my DCs.

Oh dear , that puts me into the "pushy" category..

HabbaDabba - of cause he wasn't denied parties at 5 in order to practice. He however did have to do his practice before going to the party. Music very quickly branched out into 2 instruments, orchestra, then choir so from about age 7-8 he had something on every day..and needed time for practice.Then the social calendar had to be shrunk.
This year at the age of 11 he asked if could skip a really good foreign trip with school as he wanted more preparation time for a music competition.
Was his own request..So I hope I do still don't qualify for the 3-rd category

discotequewreck posted 'I was made to train, yelled at and put under a huge amount of pressure.... I did well but I feel no joy about it .... It was my father's dream, not mine"

CliftonGirl posted "I spend a lot of time teaching younger ones, they are also studying an instrument from the age of 3 with a private tutor"

Sofar ...

1. disco's father
2. Cliftongirl
3. Pianomama
4. HabbaDaba

I'm looking very laid back at the moment :)

pianomama - strong category 2 with possible ocassional overlap with category 3 :)

Can we have the league table in form of a spreadsheet with different rankings for different type of activities and perhaps for different children?

At the moment I am not sure whether I come in just above or just below HabbaDabba. I did make encourage dd to attend her dress rehearsal the day after her knee op (long story) but allowed her to drop her second science GCSE. And if it had been ds I would probably have made the opposite decision.

not every child is suitable for an alleged rat race eh?

A spreadsheet? Good idea. Your mission, cory, should you choose to accept it is to ...... :)

I'm not sure where to slot in Dancergirl.

She posted "My middle dd is preparing for 11+. ... she has a tutor, I do a lot of research into schools entry requirements.

She obviously doesn't see herself as being pushy but tutoring and the research stuff gets her IMO into the upper part of the mildly pushy band.

Now how do you fit dancergirl into the spreadsheet in relation to those of us whose children are not in grammar school areas? This gets vairy complicated....

Where can I be on the list. I insist that ds does the same number of hours practice a week that it would take someone on the minimum wage to earn the money for his guitar lesson. (Ie. roughly 2 hours a week, or 20 minutes day at least 5 days a week)

He also gone to a tutor in year 6 as his school is crap.

"This year at the age of 11 he asked if could skip a really good foreign trip with school as he wanted more preparation time for a music competition."

I think its sad for a child to miss an opportunity like a really good foreign school trip. School trips foster independence and maturity. It is good for children to see the world and experience being away from home with their friends.

I fee that there needs to be balance between school, hobbies and social activites. I feel that attending parties or playdates is as important as music practice or homework!

Development of social skills is vital for happiness in adult life. Some children NEED a push to develop their social skills so that they get the most out of life and living. All people need the ablity to develop happy and healthy relationships however good they are at maths, music, sport, medicine etc.

I think there is a differnce between arbitrarily deciding the path your child will take and then ignoring the child's development through this path and looking to see what your child is good at and encouraging them to achieve their potential in that.
I also think that if sucess is defined very narrowly as getting lots of exam passes, playing an instrument and getting into university then you risk a lot of unhappiness - either by your child struggling to do any of this, or doing it, yet hating it.

I have also seen pushy parents in sports scenarios and in drama/acting/modelling.
It's fine if the child is enjoying it, but I often see theatre mums who are living via their child and counting the child's sucess as their own. This leaves the child with a very fractured sense of self and a terrible burden of having to produce (auditions, winning matches etc) in order to please their parent.

My DD plays in a sports team at county level and there is definitely a split between parents who want their child to play the sport they enjoy (I would put myself in this camp) and have fun and the parents who want their child to WIN at all costs. Those children whose parents want only a win and nothing less have terrible tanrums and a very narrow definition of how they will suceed or fail. They also tend to cheat quite a bit. Their parents term this "being competitive". It does tend to take all the enjoyment out of it.

My DD does happen to be academic so we encourage her studies, I'd love her to enjoy her music, but she doesn't, so I have given up on that one.

ReallyTired - I would slot you next to me. Your using a tutor gets a pass because it was to make up for a crap school as opposed to pushing DC.