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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that there is nothing wrong with being a "pushy" mum

999 replies

CliftonGirl · 03/06/2013 10:55

Just that really. I used to be a "relaxed" mum with DS1 which I regret, but thankfully I switched to a "pushy" mode when he was in year four. As a result he moved from a bottom-middle set to a super selective grammar and doing brilliantly. I am very pushy with the younger DCs.

I've noticed a lot of people on mumsnet think that we are still in the 20th century and you can get to Oxbridge from a mediocre school without much effort. AIBU to think that the world is much more competitive now and there is no choice but to push DC to achieve?

Ps, English is not my first language, so please don't flame me for the spelling mistakes.

OP posts:
wordfactory · 06/06/2013 11:00

cory it sounds like your parents made a very poor job of parenting your DB. They clearly didn't know or understand him.

That type of disconnect is very sad.

But that doesn't mean that all pushy parents are disconnected. Quite the contrary.

wordfactory · 06/06/2013 11:07

Though to be fair to them cory when your DB was young, they probably didn't want to give up on him.

I see far too many parents make assumptions about their DC's intellect at a very young age. Just because they're finding it hard in the beginning doesn't mean they won't ultimately be academic...

cory · 06/06/2013 11:17

Absolutely agree with this, wordfactory. All I am saying is, you need to be sensitive to the child you actually have, not assume that any one child is going to be the same as any other child with the same genetic background.

Personalities matter too. Db and I respond very differently to challenges and that too was part of the mix: an approach that stimulated me and made me work harder would break his confidence and muddle his thinking.

Even dd, who is very similar in ambitions and aptitude to me, needs to handle challenges in a different way and that has taken me a long time to learn. What would have been the right approach for me is the wrong approach for her.

If you had told me at the age of 16 that something was impossible, I would have been right there attempting it; that would have been part of the enjoyment. Dd otoh knows that she needs to de-stress herself, take pressure off herself, use CBT techniques to focus her attention away from the issue and take the jump with her eyes closed as it were. In the end we can achieve the same result. But not by the same route.

It's taken me time to learn and I have been guilty of some bad parenting in the interim. But, like my parents, am ending up being very proud of what my child can do rather than what I had thought she could.

cory · 06/06/2013 11:20

cross-post, wordfactory

and yes, I agree with your second post; my parents were not bad parents, they just didn't want to give up and were perhaps a little unimaginative about what possible other ways of success there might be

by the time they got to their fourth child, they had learnt a lot; they saw more positives in his very different priorities and values

BloggingAboutTediousThings · 06/06/2013 11:22

I think being pushy is good for your children. It all has to be healthy though. An excellent example for a pushy mother is surely the Tiger Mother, if that ring's any bells. I wish my mother would have been a bit more pushy, she was while I was younger. I went to an excellent grammar school but when I was sixteen she stopped pushing me and I left school to move abroad. I am now 22 and studying after long and exhausting days with a two year old.

Xenia · 06/06/2013 11:24

For most parents it is a balance - encouragement and also finding out what that child is and what is good for them. Most children learn more by example than pushing. If your mother enjoys her full time career and makes a fortune the child will have sen that model. If the mother just cleans the house and is kept by a man that is the example being modelled and daughters in particular may not end up to much except being bred to be housewives in their time.

LeBFG · 06/06/2013 11:35

If the SAHM has a life full of projects she can lead by example to inspire her children in the arts and pursuit of knowledge, if she uses the time available to her to take her children to see things they rarely do at school (theatre, moutaineering, travel holidays, nature walks etc) she can instill a sense of adventure and curiosity that the working parent just has only a limited time to do. Plus, she's always there when the kids come home from school to listen to problems, stimulate debate and help with homework. SAH parents don't have to do just the housework Xenia.

Bonsoir · 06/06/2013 11:40

... or counter example. DD's best friend, whose father is a partner at McKinsey and whose mother an international arbitration lawyer, told me the other day that she did not want to follow in their footsteps - she wanted a life where she could stay at home and see her children.

musicislife · 06/06/2013 11:41

Good for you, I believe they need all the help they can get and I speak to the school if i'm not happy currently having an issue where my DD's school won't run the GCSE Spanish course that she badly wants actually. That's great about the second language thing BTW - I can't see any spelling mistakes myself.

froubylou · 06/06/2013 11:42

I disagree with that statement Xenia. My mum was a stay at home mum. I'm the oldest out of 6 so in reality working wasn't an option for her until my youngest sister was older.

That made me want more than the drudgery I perceived my mum had. More than relying on a man to bring home money. More than having no choice about what she did day to day, where she lived, where we went to school.

I pushed myself hard at school and college but chose not to go to university. I took a basic cashiers job in a bank and worked my way up over the next 10 years to manager and then financial adviser. I then had my DD and recognised that what I percieved as drudgery from a young age was in actual fact more enjoyable and more rewarding than any job. My choice. But I was able to make an informed comparrison based on what I had done before.

I am now in the main a stay at home mum and currently 'cooking' DC2. But my DD (aged 8) knows that I had a 'good' job and career before having children. And I also run a small business from home so I think she sees the best of both worlds. When she was younger finances didn't allow me to be a stay at home mum and she still remembers me not being able to attend various events at school etc.

So just because a child (and a daughter in particular) sees a certain way of life for parents it doesn't necessarily follow that they will repeat the lifestlye of those parents. A daughter is not bound to follow in her mothers footsteps.

Which goes back to the original arguement of pushy parents. Just because the parents are high achievers it doesn't always follow that their children will be. And to push them to achieve because the parents did is wrong.

As a mother if I raise children that are confident, happy and balanced individuals with the courage and tenacity to follow their own dreams and ambitions I will have done a good job.

And I am under pressure from DD's school to go on the 'gifted and talented' programme for maths. She is in year 4 and already has sat the year 6 sats tests and scored in the top 5% of last years group. But for me its more important for her at 8/9 years old to be a child, not a child genius. I will revisit it when she goes to comprehensive and is old enough to make a decision as to whether she wants to push herself harder.

I am very, very proud of her. But won't let academic achievements become the be all and end all of her life at this moment in time. Plenty of time for that sort of pressure as she gets older.

icravecheese · 06/06/2013 11:58

Been following this mammoth thread with interest....am probably at the very relaxed end of the scale as I firmly believe in 2 things:

(1) NO homework at primary school age - I never got homework until secondary school, I don't think my kids should either (unless it is targeting something specific to the child eg handwriting, spelling etc).

(2) NO after school / extra curricular activities until the child actually begs asks to do something specific, be it swimming, ballet, football etc. I see far too many kids being dragged here, there and everywhere after school to do some god-forsaken class that they really don't want to go to, but their mother has decided they should be doing it.

I got straight A's at school, 1st class honours degree followed by a training contract with a top global firm. But my parents NEVER EVER pushed me and for that, I am eternally grateful.

wordfactory · 06/06/2013 11:58

frou you raise the point that just because the parents are high achievers, doesn't mean the DC will be.

Others have also posed the question what we pushy parents would do if our DC were not.

It's a fair one.

To be honest, my Mum decided I was clever and special based on not very much and it turned out so. Did she just guess correctly, or did she make it so?

Same for me really. My twins were prem and globally delayed. Wghen they went to school they were teeny tiny, just out of nappies. Many of the other kids could already read and write! Throughout those early years I refused to accept that my DC weren't academic. I endlessly reminded people that they were young and under developed.

Behind my back I'm sure there were parents rolling their eyes. Just like the posters on here asking why can't aprents just accept their kids are mediochre...

Well, I was proved right. Both my DC are academic. DS is particularly academic. Were they always so? Or did I make them so with my pushing?

That said, if they had reached eleven or twelve and still showed no signs of high ability, I'd like to think I would have known when to quit Grin. But who knows?

I also know that I don't expect my DC to follow my dreams or my path. But I guess, I do expect them to have dreams and a path. And they do! Often unexpected ones! And them I push them down that path Grin.

skyeskyeskye · 06/06/2013 12:00

frouby good post. mothers do not have to earn a fortune to be a good role model. and at what cost to their child? I try and balance work and home life because I do not want to be out working long hours and never seeing my daughter. I would not have had a child then gone back to full time work. I earn good money, working from home, enough to get by on. I am there for my daughter when she needs me.

How many children are going to grow up remembering that they didnt see anything of their mums as they grew up because they were always working.....

I grew up on a farm, watching my mother being treated like dirt by my MCP dad and working herself into the ground. I took her as a role model NOT TO BE like.... and got myself a professional qualification which gives me a job for life. I did that without having to go to University.

Some of us are career driven, some of us are not. Every person is individual and that is what I shall be bringing my daughter up to see. and she also needs to know that it is important for a child to have her mum around, especially when the father has walked out on family life.

wordfactory · 06/06/2013 12:01

icrave I think you'll find obn this thread that your academic and work success are not considered all that!

That type of life has been roundly dismissed as dull and pointless and joyless...by the parents against pushing.

Sorry. No cigar Grin.

PoppyAmex · 06/06/2013 12:03

"To be honest, my Mum decided I was clever and special based on not very much and it turned out so. Did she just guess correctly, or did she make it so?"

You forgot modest. Grin

willitbe · 06/06/2013 12:19

Niceguy You said: "I totally get that some people are more academic than others but doesn't that mean that those which are not need to try that bit harder?" My son works 100 times harder than his siblings and most of his peers, in learning academically, at home and at school, he may well get the A's eventually, but I now look at the effort he puts into learning rather than grades. I would never say "Ahhh well....he's falling behind now. But that's just cos he's not clever enough.",* !! Of course not, I am making sure he continues to have all the help I and the school can give him. Now we know what is going on we are able to be more targeted at helping him. Educational psychologist assessed him as superior intelligence with dyslexia.

But in reality, he may not be able to achieve all A's. His sense of worth has been knocked by seeing his peers excel where he struggles. I want him to have a sense of worth about himself that goes beyond GCSE grades. I hope that your 6 year old stepson has reasonable intelligence and no learning disability, as pushing for top marks may just undermine his self esteem if not. Please, this comes from someone who has learnt the hard way that saying "I've always told my kids I love them unconditionally. And as such it's my job to make sure they have everything they need to hit those top marks.", is not the same as just truly loving them unconditionally. I agree that " 'pushiness' isn't just saying "You shall get an A* or you are a failure". It's more about "Look....why can't you get that A* ? What's stopping you? Can we fix it and then you should be able to aim for it?"* It's refusing to let them give up and pigeon-hole themselves."*, it is about helping them reach their true potential, at whatever level.

CliftonGirl - You posted: Merry, my point was that some people expect their kids to achieve top results without much input. Another point - you should expect more from your kids and not write them off as non academic at an early age. I don't have a problem with people choices at all, I do respect other parental approaches, as I said earlier I was a very relaxed mum with ds1, so I can see things from a different perspective. I think that there is a middle ground that can be achieved, I was the reverse of you, I was a pushy mum, until I discovered my son had a specific learning difficulty (dyslexia). I think that encouraging your children to work hard at whatever they want to do is a good thing to do. But setting goals that are not what they want to do, and manipulating them to get them to fulfil your goal, is a dangerous thing, and can lead to emotionally loosing your children, as many posters have already expressed on this thread.

HeadsDownThumbsUp Wed 05-Jun-13 17:50:54
my point was that some people expect their kids to achieve top results without much input
But, OP - a lot of kids do achieve top results without much input! - I agree with this.

To be honest, the standards you are setting for your kids are, in many ways, not that high if you think that they are genuinely gifted. And most pushy parents erroneously believe that their children are gifted. Any very gifted child could easily achieve a crop of As at A-level, and as a gifted young adult, a first at University. Most very gifted kids could jump through the necessary hoops to qualify as an accountant or solicitor without breaking a sweat, to be totally honest. It's not exactly nobel prize winning stuff. , I think this too!

My daughter, who has been assessed as gifted by an educational psychologist, does not need to work at all at school, she just sails through getting top marks, being the top of the class, constantly. This is actually hard to motivate her to work at anything. The educational psychologist said that I need to get her to do something that she needs to work at or practice, something where she can see progression at her own pace, eg music or speech and drama classes and gradings. As most children she sees with my daughters abilities sail through school with no effort at all, and some then crash and burn either at university or the work-place because they are suddenly required to have a self-motivated work ethic.

wordfactory Wed 05-Jun-13 17:56:51
headsdown I really think that's rubbish.

"For a start really gifted people often have a coach who pushes them on. It's very rare for someone to achieve any exceptional without the constant input of another." I don't think this is strictly true!

A close friend of mine has a son who has had no pushing at home at all, and sailed through primary school, and the son decided that he wanted to go to a bi-lingual secondary school for the challenge. Gifted children are all different, some are motivated and love to learn, others are "lazy" and love just being the best all the time (until they reach a point they are not the best)

Gifted children too need to be treated as individuals, some will need a bit of pushing and encouraging and motivating (like my daughter) others will not.

Word factory you also said "And second, many of us pushy parents do not believe we have exceptional DC (sorry seeker I know you think my DC is exceptional, but he's not!). We believe that talent can be nurtured and that the nurturing process requires a fair bit of input which many perceive as pushing." I agree that nurturing a child is very important, it is difficult to know sometimes, when nurturing can become controlling and forcing a child to focus on things that they may not naturally wish to do. The limiting of time on the computers and x-boxes can quickly cross into determining what level of academic achievement is "acceptable". Instead of focussing on the needs of the child, the focus is on the wants and aspirations of the parents. It is a line that I continue to look at reassess my motives on a regular basis.

Xenia · 06/06/2013 12:20

The comment above about what is pushing in Luton and elsewhere. If I leave out the newspapers for the children and talk about them and they listen to the Today programme on the way to school on R4 which they doI don't regard that as pushing as they are simply exposed to how I am. If we play classical music most days because that's fun and they see me singing and playing the piano are they pushed? I would say not but clearly they are picking up what is "normal" in this sort of family and that may or may not help them.

It is the same point with picking a top 20 academic day school - everyone there will do well so that tends to be the main teenage influence rather than half the class having IQs of under 100 and leaving school at 16.

(frou just proves my point. Her mother was a hosuewife and ergo so is she.

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 06/06/2013 12:23

half the class having IQs of under 100 and leaving school at 16

Confused
icravecheese · 06/06/2013 12:29

Wow, I'm off to retune all my radios to R4 and classicfm....if thats how easy being pushy is, I'm a convert Wink

LeBFG · 06/06/2013 12:29

You've got to be there to talk to them Xenia (or is that delegated to the nanny?). Working parents spend time at home catching up with chores (unless you have a cleaner too) - SAHP do all that shit when the kids are not there (or not do it at all as in my case [slob]).

However, 100% agree that environment and examples set by doing is the only healthy way to encourage and stimulate young minds.

seeker · 06/06/2013 12:49

This is the point Xenia always dodges. Who is listening, encouraging, helping the children while the parents are off earning megabucks? The unavoidable answer is people with an IQ of 100 who can't get high flying jobs so are only suitable for boring jobs like child care....

boxershorts · 06/06/2013 12:54

Quesadilla. I agree encouraging can turn to bullying. At that level it is as feminine as a ferret in a rabbit hutch. Perhaps it is best to really know your child and not push too hard with the wrong child. After all, extreme ambition can be greedy

HabbaDabba · 06/06/2013 12:55

"And most pushy parents erroneously believe that their children are gifted".

If I posted that most WC people/most comp pupils/most Brits are i would be virtually sheesh kebab-ed on a virtual front lawn. But hey, lets make a generalisation about 'most pushy parents'

I know kids who are concert level musicians at the age of 10. I know kids that are home schooled because even academic private schools aren't challenging enough. One 14 year old kid that I know has his HS supplemented by attending ah hoc lectures at the local university.

So, no, most of us don't think that our kids are exceptional or gifted.

froubylou · 06/06/2013 12:56

Xenia you miss my point. I clas myself as a SAHM now as I work part time from home for myself. I run my own business as well as my OH's (a building company).

I am so super efficient as a SAHM that I can achieve all I need to do work wise in 2 hours and the rest of the time I am on demand for my family and for myself. I get to go to DD's beachparty at school this afternoon for example. And today I have mostly cleaned my house.

When I worked FT (and returned to do so after my DD was born) I had a very, very high opinion of myself. I had a cleaner and daycare for DD, worked, cooked nurtious meals for me and my family, engaged DD in stimulating activities after work/school and weekends were jam packed with educational and fulfilling activities for us all. TV was a no no unless it was the hour I was cooking the nutrious meals or berating the cleaner for not doing the top of the wardrobes.

Now, weekends are for relaxing and socialising. After school we do homework/ponies/visit granny/take the dog for a long walk then cook a nutrious meal. But you know what? Last night we had fishfingers (birdseyes not fancy homemade salmon ones) with chips and beans and horror of horrors! sliced, white bread. Touch wood we are all still alive and well this morning. Though DP was a bit windy all night.

And still my DD achieves all she wants and more. Shes happy, confident and creative, kind,loving and affectionate. She has a good sense of what is right and what is wrong. She has ambitions which fluctuate between being a vet, a doctor, a nurse and a riding instructer. She doesn't play any musical instruments but can ride a reasonable dressage test. She can swim (completed certs to level 8 and done her life saving badge) but wasn't interested in taking it further by swimming competatively (thank god). She spent 2 years doing 'street dance' and had 6 ballet lessons before she decided it wasn't for her. She has friends. She socialises well with adults and children. She likes fashion and clothes and likes to wear a little lip gloss and eyeshadow for her youth club nights on fridays. She doesn't currently like boys much, but does have 2 friends who are boys and can talk to them as easily as girls. Her biggest disaster in her life so far has been me getting PG with DC2 which she is slowly coming around to. She wins graciously and looses with dignity. She understands that things you want to achieve need to be worked at. And her biggest achievements have not been academic, though we are proud of her when she (consistently) does well. Shes top of her class in everything which we quietly celebrate. We loudly celebrate when she achieves something she has had to work harder at.

So for an 8 year old she is perfect in every way. Am I a pushy mum? Am I feck lol. Her path through life is her making. I will be there to guide her to the right paths. She will fall sometimes or choose the wrong path. What makes a better mum for me is not the one who pushes their DC up the paths they have chosen for their children, but the one who helps their DC to choose their own path and follow it to the end. Or choose a different path if it turns out wrong.

And being a SAHM does not in any way make me or the other mums who choose that path in any way inferior to those mums who choose a nanny to raise their children whilst they pursue their own dreams. A career does not define you. You need the strength of character to define yourself otherwise you will never be able to help your DC define themselves.

Acinonyx · 06/06/2013 12:56

Seeker Grin