To think that there is nothing wrong with being a "pushy" mum

[CliftonGirl]

Just that really. I used to be a "relaxed" mum with DS1 which I regret, but thankfully I switched to a "pushy" mode when he was in year four. As a result he moved from a bottom-middle set to a super selective grammar and doing brilliantly. I am very pushy with the younger DCs.

I've noticed a lot of people on mumsnet think that we are still in the 20th century and you can get to Oxbridge from a mediocre school without much effort. AIBU to think that the world is much more competitive now and there is no choice but to push DC to achieve?

Ps, English is not my first language, so please don't flame me for the spelling mistakes.

"To me believing you can do anything you set your mind to is something that comes from not being a failure."

But it's not true, is it? You can't do anything you set your mind to.

I am dyslexic too but was not diagnosed until university, so I thought I was thick and had to study much harder than my classmates to keep up. I still managed to get into university of my choice and gain a good degree. But it was a bloody hard work.

Not only are there things you probably wont be able to do, there are also things you will fairly bad at ...just learn to laugh, is what we do in Casa Wordfactory.

Oh yeah, and I'm dyslexic too .

I think you are confusing feeling a failure with failing.

Footballers fail to get a goal, advertising companies fail to win a pitch, the crop fails, a horse fails to jump a fence, there was a traffic jam so I failed to get there on time. It rained so the tennis players failed to get out on court. He failed the audition.

Sometimes you don't succeed, sometimes that makes you feel a bit rubbish for a while, but as the saying goes you pick yourself up, dust yourself down and start again with a little more information.

I think its quite dangerous advice that is likely to lead to failing to do what you have set your heart on and being deeply disappointed. Instead of looking at the gap between your aspirations and your skills and talents and thinking about finding a new (equally satisfying but achievable) direction.

For example ds wants to be a video game designer, as do a high proportion of his generation I would suspect. It is an incredibly competitive field where very very few people achieve their aims. So we will be encouraging him to keep his options open and talking to him about the potential downsides, and making sure that if that is the direction he does decide to pursue he goes into it with open eyes knowing that there is a high chance of being very frustrated.

seeker - I don't think playing 'shut the box' is a pushy thing to do but some might construe it as such. In reality, most pushy parents aren't drilling their DC in sums and spellings etc. they are just imparting skills in a natural 'unforced' way.

Merrymouse

Of course all those things happen and things don't always go to plan, but I just don't see that the person has failed. Its the implications and negative association which imo has no purpose.
Of course the end result is the same, you haven't all of a sudden passed the exam, audition etc. But, I feel its far better to move on, learn where you went wrong, how you can improve and many other lessons far easier if you aren't termed as failing. It also helps with the disappointment and lack of self esteem and confidence a person can feel from having "failed".

As I say though, thats just me and my psychology.

They have failed because they haven't succeeded in what they wanted to do and that is the definition of failure.

Better to be honest with children and accept that failure makes you feel a bit rubbish, but its perfectly survivable and just something you encounter as part of life than to gloss
Over unpleasantness by not using a word.

Merrymouse

Yes not doing as well as you hoped does make you feel a bit rubbish momentarily, but you can dust yourself off and start again far sooner than if you have to go through all the failure, lack of self esteem, confidence and thinking you have failed.
I know the mentality I prefer, but we are all different.

OP, I think that you are trying to make up for your lack of career by making pushing your kids your new career.

I also expect that for safety sake you will try to buy them results/career wherever possible (and there is no doubt that in the UK money and the right connections can buy you a lot even if you are mediocre).

What is more important, the pursuit of happiness or the pursuit of money (even if it means being unhappy as your DH is)?

I feel sorry for your DH and your kids TBH.

I think it only really hits your self esteem if you've been told (or picked up a message) that failure is bad. Not talking about it. Well I'm not sure that's a tactic that really works because children feel things regardless of what we would like them to feel.

My dd for example was getting very very anxious the other night that perhaps she might not get on the honour roll this term (requires a B average in academics), or that she might drop a grade somewhere. She was in a terrible state about it. We have never ever suggested that it would be a problem if she didn't get on the roll. Ever. Her brother has never been on it, so we have been very careful not to make too big of a deal out of her achievement. She told me that she was worried that because she had got the best academic medal two years ago but not last year that she wasn't doing well! If she felt that she couldn't say she was worried about failing how could we support her? Chances are very unlikely that she won't get on the honour roll, and I suspect she probably is in line for a prize too (unlike poor ds who had to sit there like a lemon when about 90% of his class were publically awarded for one thing or another last year).

But it is important to acknowledge that children do worry about failing and that to them it is a real word and a real feeling and they need resilience, love and support.

Not that I'm saying you don't give them love and support mind, I am sure you are a lovely mum.

Nooka

The difference would be my dd would not worry about it in the first place, she has never picked up any negative vibe, like failing.
It isn't an issue for her, and she would be on the roll. I support her by saying, its not important if you pass, achieve what you want to, don't worry if x doesn't go right. etc.
She is very determined and always gets what she sets out to get.
I think this is the way she is and it seems to work for her.
She is happy, confident, and successful.

But if you don't succeed you do have to go through failure. Not using the word 'fail' doesn't change that. Calling night time "not day" doesn't make it any less night.

It seems to me that making a statement like "you failed your driving test" would translate to you as "you are a good for nothing idiot who will never be able to drive and the rest of your life should be flushed down the toilet too". This is not what it means. It means that on this occasion "you failed your driving test".

It's not pleasant to fail a driving test but neither should it be an event that permanently damages your self esteem.

Perhaps because of your upbringing the word failure carried alot of baggage and I do sympathize with that. However it's just a word that your children will come across again and again. Why not neutralise it?

And isn't the reality that sometimes its a real pain in the backside when you don't succeed and it does matter? Clearly it doesn't matter to you in the sense that you will love your dd whether she passes or fails.

However, from a practical point of view, if nothing matters why do anything?

Merrymouse

I totally agree with you that was exactly what it was like for me and a lot more to go with it, which is another thread.
However, that aside just from my experience with my dc, I have found it far better for their confidence and esteem to portray this attitude.
I suppose we have neutralised it in a way by not having it as an option. My dh is also like this and I'm sure its this attitude that has made him so successful.
Also, I don't see that people need to be able to deal with failure moreover, not be involved in anything in which you wouldn't succeed, unless of course it was unavoidable. You still have to learn to live with disappointment within necessarily "failing". My dd didn't do as well as everybody thought she would, including herself in a music exam. She passed with a good mark, but not the distinction she so desperately wanted. She set herself the high expectation, others just quietly thought about what they thought she'd achieve.

I haven't got time to read 31 pages of this thread and I apologise if these points have been made before.I also apologise for the length of this thread but I feel really sad about the way in which Motherhood has been turned into some high-level career. I was really optimistic about choices for women and felt that women were equal with men...until my DC started school, and the pushy competitive mothering came into full force. I feel like a complete outsider at the endless round of birthday parties where the conversation amongst mothers is only ever about their children, high anxiety about what extra-curricular actitivities to sign them up for, covert investigations into what reading level other people's children are on. Emails from PTA are never sent to fathers, always just to the mothers. Endless requests for cakes, donations etc. And I think of the opening scene of that very entertaining book/film "I don't know how she does it" where the high-flying city banker with two children is busy bashing shop bought mince pies with a rolling pin to make them look home made. My thought was, why bother with the rolling pin? Why do women who don't have time to be domestic goddesses and perfect mothers even bother pretending to be? WHY?!

In response to the OP, if your children enjoy their extra-curricular activities and extra school work, and are happy and understand that you love them unconditionally, then I don't see a problem in your approach from that perspective.

BUT I do think you are setting a bad example to your daughter, as are other over-involved helicopter 'career mothers'. Being a pushy mother is a demanding job; it takes time and commitment and quite a lot of stress. It's best if you don't have a full-time job yourself. So the message that pushy mothers are sending out to their daughters is: work hard at school, do well, but then if you want to do the same by your own daughter when you have one, you may need to forgo your career ambitions or else risk burnout. Whether we like it or not, the way we parent often has quite a lot to do with the way we are parented. If a daughter is eternally grateful to her mother for pushing her at school and spending hours and hours devoted to furthering her academic success, won't she then feel really guilty when she is struggling to hold down a career and do the same by her own children?

I think mothers who would prefer NOT to be pushy mothers often feel that they have to be so that their DC don't get left behind. You can only ever be as relaxed as the pushiest mother in the class in a sense. It's a horrible vicious circle.

Some days, I really wish I had been born a man.

Why embrace failure? Because its a requirement of many jobs - certainly anything in the performing arts; because most scientific discoveries are based on many, many repeated failures; because unless you are failing from time to time you probably aren't reaching your true potential, and because willingness to fall flat on your face often leads to fun.

I'm not suggesting that you stomp around remonstrating against your daughter for failing, just that you should lose your fear of the word and talk about it honestly with your children rather than pretending it doesn't exist. I suspect they know it does.

And I know where you are coming from messalina

morethan I have said exactly the same things to my dd. I don't know where she gets her anxieties from, although I know it is a part of what drives her to work hard. ds is completely the opposite (he is only motivated internally by what interests him). We can't tell how are children are going to turn out though, and what their feelings might be. So I would worry about taking an attitude like yours, which to me seems slightly similar to saying 'we don't talk about failure' when my child was too small t know well, like the OP with her three year old. what encourages one child to succeed could be incredibly demotivating for another.

I know personally when dh tells me that I will achieve highly at everything I do I find it very annoying!

messalina I decided early on in this parenting lark that I'd use my father as my main role model. Apart from anything else my mother's style is just poles apart from mine, plus being a great dad seems to be way way easier than being a great mum!

Messalina

What a fantastic post and certainly food for thought.
I gave a career up when I had dc, but it was mostly as didn't want a nanny which would have been unavoidable. Also dh in similar industry and it wasn't a good combo with family.

I often worry if my dd will feel she should do the same for her dc in the future. Although she is only 9, I do consider my actions and how they will mould her future. It may also be that dd chooses the same industry as I had and dh has now. I keep telling her I am a sahm and H.edder because it makes me happy and she isn't expected to do the same. Hope it gets through

Nooka

I agree, my dd is motivated by what interests her and we tend to encourage these things. Your dd obviously thrives on her anxieties it may be what spurs her on to do her best.
My dd is so laid back she is almost horizontal, and so determined, not necessarily to pass exams etc, but to achieve a certain goal or aim. When she sets her mind to something there really is no stopping her. However, no reason, cajoling, bribing will make her do something she doesn't want to.
Obviously there are some things you need to do for health, safety, etc and of course we put our foot down but academically and vocationally she usually decides for herself.

Nooka, totally agree. Being a great dad is much easier than being society's view of a 'great mum'. You just need a healthy disregard for Health & Safety (for lots of swinging kids around and hanging them upside down) and everyone comments on what a great job you are doing.

Potatoprints, you sound sane. I'm sure your daughter will be fine!

messalina I can see your point but you can choose NOT to be that mother. You can choose not to compare your child with others and concentrate on your own child's strengths, talents, lovely qualities, whatever. So what if your child gets left behind (left behind of what??)