To think that there is nothing wrong with being a "pushy" mum

[CliftonGirl]

Just that really. I used to be a "relaxed" mum with DS1 which I regret, but thankfully I switched to a "pushy" mode when he was in year four. As a result he moved from a bottom-middle set to a super selective grammar and doing brilliantly. I am very pushy with the younger DCs.

I've noticed a lot of people on mumsnet think that we are still in the 20th century and you can get to Oxbridge from a mediocre school without much effort. AIBU to think that the world is much more competitive now and there is no choice but to push DC to achieve?

Ps, English is not my first language, so please don't flame me for the spelling mistakes.

seeker I agree, it turns any debate into a pointless, slightly surreal exercise.

All this pushing is fine as long as you have an academic biddable child. What happens if you dont?

seeker - why do you choose to let strangers on an anonymous forum 'piss you off'?

Not really seeker because there is always a lot of subtext in what people post and one can address that too!

On this thread there are lots of posts stating both categorically and also withion their subtext, that highly achieving DC are unhappy!

I think it's qute a pervasive attitude actually, both on MN and in RL.

And I do think it's one worth meeting head on. Not because I need to defend my own DC (I know they are happy as Larry) but because I do think it serves to keep people in their place.

In the same way I will always challenge the assumption that making lots of cash and being happy and fullfilled are mutually exclusive!

I think peddling such shit to our DC just keeps them in their place!

Be careful. I was pushed down the sport route. Made to train, yelled at and put under a huge amount of pressure.

I did well but I feel no joy about it now and here's why.

It was my father's dream, not mine. I never felt loved just for being me, but only for the reflected glory I brought to him.

Four years ago I stopped contact with him and found my own path.

HabbaDabba, I think the key to the children being happy in that kind of environment is that that they are in "highly selective schools". I don't want to open the can of worms that is selective schooling, but children who aren't suited to that environment are unlikely to be there in the first place.

The term 'pushing' repels me. It suggests that it is meeting resistance, and that isn't how I think parenting should be.

Agree with this. Some children thrive in a very traditional educational environment (the young Michael Gove?). Providing this for them is not pushing, it is just good parenting. However, I am assuming that nobody thinks this is the ideal for all children? Clearly its a good idea to teach children that hard work is necessary to reach goals, and some of it will be boring. However, to choose those goals for them, seems to me to be very misguided parenting.

We, not our parents, are essentially responsible for our own lives. I am getting the impression that some of the people who are very anxious to define their child's success to a very narrow route must have had quite a narrow experience of life themselves.

I thought I wanted to work in the arts, then became more involved in industry and took professional exams to do this supported by my employer in my twenties. At this point my parents were living on the other side of the world. DH has had a very varied career and now works in an industry which would have been unthought of outside the realms of Star Trek when he was at school.

I'm all for ensuring that children have the opportunity to fulfil their potential. However, I take KS1 and KS2 achievement targets with a very, very large pinch of salt.

canspel - the pushy parents on this thread are saying that they have academic children that benefit from being pushed. We are not saying that other people's non academic children should be pushed in the same manner.

However, this does not stop the anecdotes about some kid who is pushed beyond his comfort level and who subsequently burns out or turn to drugs or ...or ...

Habba you was doing quite well until then!

disco your father sounds very cruel and very stupid!

"On this thread there are lots of posts stating both categorically and also withion their subtext, that highly achieving DC are unhappy!"

I don't think there are, you know!

seeker there are lots of comments about the OP's DC's happiness!!!

When do they get time to be themselves and have a play with friends?

A child pushed through their childhood, stressed, no social interactions...

etc etc etc etc etc etc

Plus tons of examples/horror stories!

Now at no point did the OP and any of the self confessed pushy parents give any indication that their DC were unhappy or stressed? Those assumptions were made by others.

It's always the case. People defend against their own inertia by assuming those with higher achievements are unhappy. What sort of message is that for DC?

I think that's true Wordfactory and often a mixture of guilt and envy that drives the criticism.

People who do not push their kids think their kids are happy.

People who do push their kids think their kids are happy.

Some are right and some are wrong. In both cases.

Now that is very true!

wordfactory To quote the OP

I've noticed a lot of people on mumsnet think that we are still in the 20th century and you can get to Oxbridge from a mediocre school without much effort. AIBU to think that the world is much more competitive now and there is no choice but to push DC to achieve?.

To be honest, I imagine that the OP's children are very happy, as, I don't think you can 'push' a child in the way that the OP describes unless they are willing to be 'pushed'.

However, the OP does imply that those people who have a different parenting style are all

a) clueless about Oxbridge (20 years ago children from 'mediocre' schools who weren't innately academic and driven didn't go to Oxbridge so I don't know why anybody would imagine they do now, with or without pushy parents)*
b) are trying to get their children into Oxbridge, even if they are still in primary school.
and
c) are a bit backward because "there is no choice but to push DC to achieve".

If she truly believes all this, well yes, she is being unreasonable.

I think I have seen equal posts from people saying that they were pushed to achieve their parents goals and this made them unhappy and people who say they weren't pushed enough and this made them unhappy, but not much about the OP's own children.

*Although I can understand that if you weren't living in the UK 20 years ago and you had read a lot about the Bullingdon club in the papers, you might be a bit confused.

When my DD was little, what could I do but push our (mine and DP's) goals upon her? When she was 1/2/3/4/5 we tried to teach her to talk (in both French and English), to scoot, to swim, to cycle, to play tennis, to ski... etc.

Now she is 8, she has a mind of her own and tells us she hates tennis. Fair enough! She doesn't have to play - all we care about is that she does the right amount and type of physical activity (including organised sports) in order to develop her motor skills and maximise the health and resilience of her particular body type.

She expressed a strong desire to learn to play the piano - fine, we found a teacher for piano and music theory. Neither of us are remotely musical but we were delighted to help her realise her own desires.

She seems pretty happy to be bilingual and is über keen to learn Spanish - keeps badgering us to speak Spanish at dinner and cannot wait to start Spanish lessons next year. She's probably fairly gifted at languages (I am).

It's OK to have your own goals for your DC - it's a way of introducing skills - as long as you also adapt to their tastes as they gain experience of the world and want to try things you hadn't necessarily planned for them.

Yes, I am distinguishing between the goal of teaching your child to swim, for instance, and the goal of choosing your child's university for them.

It is definitely harder to get to Oxbridge than it used to be, surely? Purely anecdotal really but I know plenty of ex Oxbridge doctors especially with very mediocre A'level grades who readily acknowledge they'd not have a hope in hell getting in today...

Where I am they have the university talk when the children are about 6. They are shown a movie of Ivy league and Oxbridge type universities and encouraged to list reasons why they might want to go. e.g. Oxford because it is looks pretty. Then they are encouraged to list their goals in life. The idea being that if you shoot for the stars you might get to the moon and land a place at a Russell Group. Strangely enough this is done without exerting too much pressure. Can you imagine the outcry if that happened in the UK?

Definitely. The DC I know who have recently got places at Oxford or Cambridge are geniuses that are exceptional multi-dimensional performers (think mathematical geniuses who speak 6 languages fluently).

It wasn't always like that

I get an Oxbridge impression from DH. He got in with 3 As and one B. I am not sure he'll get in now. It is much more competitive.

Well, DC1 writing AS at mo, and were looking at the Unis I'm struck by how few technology places Oxbridge has vs Humanities places (DC1 wants go do Engineering). I'd bet that the other good Tech Unis are probably as capable as Oxbridge. and

ALso seems the London ones are coming up very fast (UCL rated above Oxford in one global ranking this year) so Oxbridge may not be what it was in a few years.

Also knowing a few kids in the higher years who did/didn't make Oxbridge, some Oxbridge acceptances/ rejections do seem a bit, er, eclectic. I suspect it's increasingly a bit of a crapshoot as so many kids could potentially do it at that level, so it becomes more about get on well with interviewer on day etc.

Even DS's grammar school had a record number of applicants this year. Everything is much more competitive these days.

Why are people using "high achieving"and "pushed" as synonyms?

It's not like that now, bonsoir. You just know a very unusual group of people, no doubt.

(And agree, seeker)