To think that there is nothing wrong with being a "pushy" mum

[CliftonGirl]

Just that really. I used to be a "relaxed" mum with DS1 which I regret, but thankfully I switched to a "pushy" mode when he was in year four. As a result he moved from a bottom-middle set to a super selective grammar and doing brilliantly. I am very pushy with the younger DCs.

I've noticed a lot of people on mumsnet think that we are still in the 20th century and you can get to Oxbridge from a mediocre school without much effort. AIBU to think that the world is much more competitive now and there is no choice but to push DC to achieve?

Ps, English is not my first language, so please don't flame me for the spelling mistakes.

When I think about people that I admire in the world, both famous and people I know personally....People who have acheived alot/have done good or great things/are very happy...things such as music and language lessons at age 4 have not been a factor> For some of them it has involved education, but self-driven through interest/passion, not because they were pushed by their parents

"I was responding to a question how I can set an example as a SAHM to my kids, to which I replied that their dad can set an example for them."

So your example is no example at all?

Unami, I don't understand the obsession with examples.

Unami, I don't understand the obsession with examples

then you truly, have very strange ideas about parenting

My dh was a SAHD for a few years, he set as much of an example to our children as I did. Just a different one! I am glad that both ds and dd think that spending a part of your life in a caring role if you want to is a good thing to do, and can be combined with an interesting and fulfilling career.

OP do you really blame your mother for you choosing a degree that didn't lead directly to a good job/career? My degree has bugger all to do with my career, in fact now my masters doesn't either. This is true for many people unless you go down a vocational route very early and then stick to it.

I know a few people who opted for a vocational degree and regretted it because they changed their mind about what they wanted to do, but life has many twists and turns and learning to take opportunities when you can, be resilient and flexible are hugely important and valuable skills to learn. In my mind much more important than straight academics.

Wow, some interesting replies.

Haven't read the while thread but niceguy's comments really saddened and angered me.

You DID say 'a B is a fail in this house' so don't try to backtrack. I feel sorry for your dc. As others have said, some dc don't have the ability to get As. You are totally wrong; it IS about effort. I'd have more admiration for a child who worked really hard to get a B rather than one who got an A easily. To even imply a B isn't good enough is unforgivable. Horrible attitude.

Oh, if you want to aim high, I would check your punctuation.

Yes it's good to aim high. But it's not the be all and end all, making your dc feel rubbish if they don't achieve their aim.

Regarding your university comments, I don't know what you studied or where you went, but I worked bloody hard for my degree. I didn't party much, it's not me. And just because that was YOUR experience of university doesn't mean it will be your dc's.

More generally, I believe it's very simple: it's about helping your child to reach their potential, whatever that potential is. My middle dd is preparing for 11+. You could say I'm pushy because she has a tutor, I do a lot of research into schools entry requirements and I try to challenge her. But I just want to give her the very best chance. I tell her that even with worst case scenario (she doesn't get a place at any of her chosen schools, very unlikely), that the world won't end, I will still be proud of her and she'll go on to live a happy life. I want to bring my dc up to do things THEY find interesting.

OP you are increasingly sounding like the Uppah-middle class pushy mothers in my neck of suburbia - kids being whisked from one improving activity to the next, playdates carefully selected for suitability, not leaving the teacher when the "next" bell goes during parents evenings, husband strapped up to the Big Salary job....I could write a Lucia- like satire on these people.

Also re educated women getting the best results - I'd bet that data is very conflated with class, mate, wealth, rest of parental family influences etc.

Dancergirl, not sure why you think i'm backtracking. My kids know fine well what a 'pass' is. They also know what I expect more from them than a pass and crucially they know they can do better than that! And as for top grades, that they have my full support to reach the top.

I don't know why you feel sorry for my kids because my daughter is doing very well not just in academics but socially too.

As I've said, in the grand scale of things, GCSE's are basic exams. It's not like my daughter would leave school with a GCSE in biology and be trusted to do brain surgery.

So why is it wrong to expect my kids to do very very well in those exams?

Should I adopt the attitude with my 6 year old stepson that he can't get top marks at KS1 no matter what he does because some kids are just not academic? That's simply STUPID. What about KS2? Should I accept he can't get top marks by KS2? At what point do I think "Ahhh well....he's falling behind now. But that's just cos he's not clever enough."

With regards to effort, sorry but it's a results driven world. Colleges & uni's look at final grades and so do employers. The effort you put in isn't considered.

And why do you think my kids feel rubbish? In fact it's the exact opposite. They feel GOOD because they are doing well. My DD has choices. She is able to choose what SHE wants to do and where SHE wants to go because of the fact she is getting top grades.

Question for you with regards to "it's about helping your child to reach their potential, whatever that potential is."...what is your child's potential? Are you seriously telling me that you think all she can achieve is a C at GCSE? If so, is that why you've hired a tutor? To aim as high as a C? No of course not. You've hired a tutor to support your daughter in achieving her potential which you believe is far higher. So in reality I don't think our attitudes are very far apart.

Not every child can achieve top marks regardless of support. I hope for their sakes that your children and step children do have the ability to achieve very highly with your support, because it sounds very much that you would considered them to have failed if they are not at the very top. I agree that at GCSE a pass (ie C and above) in a family of bright children would be considered an absolute minimum, but you are not talking about passing, but achieving straight As. Not every child can achieve that. Nor does it hugely matter if they do not, as GCSEs (for that bright family) are just a stepping stone to A levels and beyond.

I pushed for my child to overcome his dyslexia by accessing specialist support for him, but I am very aware that in English at least he is highly unlikely to achieve an A. On the other hand math is easy for him, so there I am disappointed if he doesn't get an A, and I have no qualms in saying so.

School is not the same as the world of work, because you have choice. You don't have to go on doing things you are bad at, but can opt to pursue careers using the skills where you excel. So it's important to help children discover how to over come their limitations (which we all have) and find their bent. Of course a dose of real world knowledge should be the added because sometimes our dreams aren't terribly realistic, and a parents role can include that tempering role.

For example I had a friend who was desperate to be a vet. But he was not academically gifted (worked very hard, but wasn't exceptional, despite being at a very expensive private school plus tutoring) and there is no way he had a hope in hell of getting into veterinary school (at the time the hardest courses to get into, even more than medical school). He would have been better advised to train as a veterinary nurse, which was totally possible instead of becoming steadily more miserable about failing.

I agree with CliftonGirl - my parents were quite vague 'follow your dream' types and, on reflection, I wish they had been a bit pushier and done more work with me (or sent me to tutors if they couldn't) on the fundamentals... not because I hate my life now but I think I would have so many more options in front of me.

I have been the super pushy mum though probably partly to compensate for above. My daughter also got into a good selective school this year (second top one in the state here in Australia), she's been dancing since she's seven etc but I've found I've had to back off a bit this year. She really started rebelling and did some things totally out of character for her (stealing, forging my signature etc). Part of me is backing off because I don't want to push her over the edge and the other part is because I don't want to give myself a coronary! There's a fine line between having high expectations for your children and then making your whole life revolve them. I have my own life to live and the best we can do is support her and give her guidance ... if I have to be on her back for everything she needs to do for the rest of her senior years, then really I've failed her. Backing off has worked a bit. She got the third lowest maths score in her class common tests in Term One- instead of hounding her about it or shaming her, we just advised her to move her seat away from her friend (who is lovely but distracted her according to her teacher) and to come to us if she had any problems with the questions but that we would not be pushing her to complete her work anymore - that she's almost a teenager now and she has to develop those habits herself. Her maths scores have improved significantly since then. She's taking a break from the dancing which breaks my heart (she's really good) but she was completely stressing me out by not practising willingly.

Why is it 'normal' for girls to start ballet at 4 but 'pushy' to start an instrument?

I don't know how you know if a child is doing their best or not. Nor how their teacher does.

Nor if their best could be improved by 'working smarter not harder'.

Therefore I only care about achievement not effort.

Now my kids are achieving very differently. One needs to know its ok to get a B even though he's perfectly capable if an A, because otherwise he gets too stressed.

One needs to know that her current levels are going to really limit her and she has to improve. I can only say that cause I believe in her. I know she can improve. And she needs to hear it from me - because she certainly doesn't hear it from school.

Nothing wrong with believing in your child.

The trouble with this discussion is that I think everyone has different ideas of what being 'pushy' actually entails

that's true boomba

to me "pushy" has a negative connotation as it is how I hear it being used, as criticism.

I can see a very competitive person literally pushing their child in front of everyone else going "me me me" !

to me it's the intention behind the parents' behaviour that decides whether a person is pushy or not.

encouraging a child to perform the best of their abilities (this includes possible endless nagging to do their bloody homework or practice the violin) while being sensitive to their likes and needs - not pushy. that's top parenting

trampling all over the child and use them as a tool to show off how brilliant the parent is while taking away the child's freedom to choose and enjoy themselves - pushy, bossy and bordering on child abuse.

At DS's selective in 2012 90% of the kids got A/A* in the core GCSE subjects. In that company, a 'B' would be disappointing and DS knows it.

But this is not the same as saying to a kid who worked his pants off and who gets a 'B' that he failed.

I suspect ib niceguy2's case, DC is highly academic. It is not

See I can kind of understand the 'B is a fail' remark.

If a child is perfectly capable of getting an A*, then a B usually means they didn't pull their finger out! And that's not on, surely?

With reagrds to telling DC to follow their dreams, then of course they should. However, I think as a parent you have a responsibility to explain what the likely outcome of that pursuit will be!

I know oodles of people who followed their dreams into the arts world and cannot afford a house or children or to pay into their pensions. It is a huge price to pay and I think I owuld feel very sad watching my own DC pay that price.

..it's not unreasonable IMO to tell an academic child that they should be aiming for an A.

habba crossed with you, but that's my point too.

A B isn't a fail in this house, but it would be fecking disappointing!

I'm a bit wary of insisting on straight As all the time - we don't do so in our family as we try not to get our DC hung up on marks and school perfection.

Interestingly, as DSS1 comes to the end of his school career, he appears to be accelerating past the 3/4 DC who have consistently been at the top of the class for the past three years. Some DC seem to have been giving their all for so long that they are exhausted and have nothing left to give.

Bonsoir here of course there is also an A*, which means expecting an A, isn't the same as expecting top marks.

The marker in Casa Wordfactory, is did you get above your set average? If you did that, then Mama Wordfactory is happy .

As for working to their best at all times...I can only dream....

I use the expression "straight A" in the sense of "top marks".

I think everyone would love their chuldren to acheive A*s all round, because then they have choices in life

I think we just disagree on what method is likely to acheive the best education. I could see from a very early age with dd1 that nagging and trying to enforce work was counter productive. Which is unsuprising, ad my personality is the same. We do a lot of out of school stuff, lots of hiden learning. I aim to grow self morivated kids who enjoy learning. Even if pestwring worked for us, I don't want my kids to achwive because people have nagged them and they want to please us. I don't think that makes happiness.

My children's activities are chooswn by them. Dd1 is dyslexic and has to work incredibly hard at school to achwive average, which she does. So, maybe that also informs my approach

I am also a great believer in leading by example. I don't think 'say as I say, not as I do' instilled the values that I hold dear.

The term 'pushing' repels me. It suggests that it is meeting resistance, and that isn't how I think parenting should be

There's an A** in one exam... that's all we need!

To be honest, I think I've succeeded in instilling a love of learning in my DC. They seem to take up the challenge of new things with relish.

However, one has to be realistic. A lot of the nitty gritty of educational attainment is quite boring. No one ever approached revising for their GCSE Latin with their hand pumping the air.

As the HT at DS school told the boys. 'Revision is dull, lads, suck it up!'