re Offensive terminology

[DoJo]

I will confess from the off that this is kind of a thread about a thread, but really didn't want to de-rail/feed the troll depending on how you view it. However, it was mentioned a few times that 'moron' was an offensive term, and as I had never come across someone offended by it, I turn to the mighty google to research its origins. Whilst it turns out that the term was coined by Henry H Goddard to (and I'm quoting directly from wikipedia here)
"denote mild mental retardation" and "to describe a person with a mental age in adulthood of between 8 and 12 on the Binet scale".

'Fair enough' I think to myself, glad I know this as I wouldn't want to use a term which anyone would find offensive. However, the article goes on to describe the other terms used by Goddard on the same scale which include 'idiot' 'imbecile' and 'stupid'. Now, I am pretty sure that I have never seen anyone lambasted for using any of those terms on here, and also reasonably convinced that their move into everyday terminology has softened their impact significantly. So why is moron still considered (by some at least) more offensive than those other terms?

Disclaimer - genuinely not trying to start a bun fight. I just find the origins of words interesting and would be interested to know why some provoke a stronger reaction than others.

I would say the argument for not using the word comes down to how much weight you give to those people who find it offensive.

It's not a word I would use, but I've used the word 'mong' on here in the past (as in 'we were monging out on the setee) and had a hard time making my three or four apologies for it heard (i.e. they didn't seem to want to listen to me saying I didn't know it wasn't something I should say and wouldn't use it again, and just shouted me down regardless)

I'm not sure you could get everyone who uses the word to stop, but whoever is offended by it has the right to say they're not up for it.

Arf at genuinely not starting a bun fight though Why would you say that if you didn't think it would start one?

I love this question...I too am fascinated with words and language.

My understanding is that some people have associations with certain words that deem them more offensive as a direct result.

Also, I think the intent behind the context within which a word is used is most relevant in how the word is received. Just my humble opinion.

Ha AgentZigzag...love your footnote!

I agree with agent - I'd go by what people genuinely feel about it.

FWIW, I find 'cretin' truly offensive, and I wish to hell people wouldn't use it. It is an out of date medical term for someone with congenital mental disabilities and I think it is horrible. But, I know a lot of people don't know that's what it means.

'Idiot' didn't originally come from medical language, though. It comes from the word for someone who held himself aloof from society, and then in English it meant someone who wasn't learned or clever. It only became a specialized medical term later. To me, that makes it different from a word that was primarily popularized by its use in a medical system to stigmatize people with mental disabilities.

But that is very personal and I wouldn't be guided by it - if someone's sensitive about 'idiot' I'd just try not to use it, it's no skin off my nose.

Well, it is Friday night, half term and a thread about a thread (possibly one started by a troll) so I wanted to get in first and try to learn something rather than spend a whole thread having to defend my reasons for asking. And it worked - an interesting and reasoned response already .

OP's scared 2Retts, and who can blame her?

Although I can see it now, I genuinely didn't link 'we're off to mong out and watch Neighbours' with 'mongoloid'.

Which does throw up the question, like you say 2R, that is it the same word if new meanings have been attached to it?

In mongs case, it is the same word/kind of same meaning because what it meant to me was switching off and getting the thousand yard stare, which is blatantly associated to a negative stereotype of someone who has DS.

Don't moron and idiot have the same connotations?

That you're as...and I'm struggling for another word which isn't along the same lines...seemingly inadequate as one of Those SN people.

It's interesting how different words mean different things to different people.
Recently learnt that 'hun' can be considered offensive in some.parts of Scotland, as it has sectarian connotations.
Had no idea! It was a really interesting thread.
I can completely understand your point.
My dp often argues that some of the words that I/others use don't actually mean what we intend them to mean but my argument is that language changes over time and the meaning of words change to what they are most commonly used to mean (iyswim).

I've wondered similar. Idiot is used all the time and I have never once seen anyone offended at it. I've not seen a convincing coherent argument against using any in that selection other than 'it's offensive'.

Offensive to who? Are imbeciles saying 'oi! don't call him an imbecile, he gives us a bad name'. Mothers saying 'you are belittling our son who has been officially diagnosed with being stupid when you call someone else stupid just for putting the keys in the fridge again'.

I can think of a reason why we shouldn't say 'you're a fucking imbecile' or 'don't be a moron' but I've never had that presented to me as a reason when someone has said these words are offensive.

I'd like some fucking logic applied so that I have half a chance of working out if something is going to be offensive.

It puzzles me that in this day and age, the term 'bastard' is still used as an insult.

If I stated a fact and said someone's child was a bastard because its parents were unmarried, I'd (quite rightly) get a smack in the mouth.

Yet if their DP was being out of order and I said, "Leave the bastard"...that would be perfectly ok.

So if people are insulted due to a word's original meaning...I wonder how they'd define 'acting like a bastard'?

I think also that it depends where it's said.

At home in front of the telly with your DH who knows you aren't down on anyone with any disability would be different to how you tailor your speech to a wider public audience.

How you react to being told that it offends some people is telling too IMO (and I'm not just saying that because I took what was said to me on board, but some people won't change themselves just because they don't like being told what to do) why would you argue that the other person has no right to feel whatever the fuck they like about what you've said?

'It's my right to offend you' can only be said by a twat surely?

(But then there are some people who go on a bit of a control rampage and get their nickers in a twist for the attention

'Are imbeciles saying 'oi! don't call him an imbecile'

We're talking about one of the most vulnerable groups in society who maybe can't articulate how they feel as they'd like to, and if they could, might be justified in feeling as though nobody would give a monkeys bollocks.

Just because people from one group or another aren't heard to speak up doesn't mean they don't have an opinion.

YY, I find that one odd too, worra. I mean, obviously it used to be that people genuinely thought illegitimate children were also doomed to grow up to be horrible people, but FFS, we've kind of gone past that now, right?!

I don't get the issue, though. People who witter on about how terribly upsetting it is that they don't know when they might offend someone are surely modelling precisely the kind of behaviour they pretend to deplore, only with rather more attention-seeking and rather less cause?

Since the OP, I've remembered a friend who used the word 'flid' frequently, as a term of affectionate abuse and was horrified when someone pointed out that it was an offensive term relating to thalidomide and those affected by it. Ironically, she had actually learned it from an American friend who was using it as an acronym for Fucking Long Island Douche so when she confronted him about it, he was completely baffled. The whole situation was an exercise in context though, and made me very wary of using any term which I hadn't researched thoroughly.

I think in some cases the use of certain words says something about the mindset of the person using them and the fact that they even hold the vocabulary in their head as acceptable renders the audience unimportant.

Having seen two of my colleagues bandying the word "spaz" about on FB yesterday I was appalled.

I think "cretin" is horrible, I'm not comfortable with "moron", but have no problems with "idiot".

Mary Whitehouse had no qualms in telling everyone what offended her.

She could fuck right off though.

As for bastard, cunt etc. They basically have evolved or society has evolved or both so that they have two definitions as with many words.

bastard - the child of an unmarried mother (archaic) 'Twelve bastard children were admitted to the poor house that day'.

bastard - an unpleasant person who does not treat people well. 'The chef was a complete bastard who would spit in the food whenever anyone sent it back for being cold'.

Agree agent
With both posts, particularly the second.

Use of bastard has evolved though. It still means what it meant originally but people use it as a general term for "scoundrel" or whathaveyou.

Instead of "moron" I have always enjoyed using "clown" or "bozo" personally.

sorry cross posted with Waffle to say almost exactly the same thing!

waffly - but those two meanings are related, right? I mean, that's why it's offensive, isn't it?

If 'bastard' were simply a descriptive term for a child whose parents weren't married, it would never have become rude.

The point is that people used to believe that children whose parents weren't married were tainted with sin and would grow up to be criminal and horrible people.

I thought imbecile, moron etc were outmoded terms for levels of mental retardation?

Why don't you want to protect morons? Aren't they vulnerable?

Definitely Agent, I'd be scared, bold subject indeed; I salute you DoJo!

I'm seriously unoffended by any words used as I appreciate (as yaimee points out), the English language is a big, beautiful, ever-evolving creature. Society changes and then so does the accepted meaning of words.

I've had some really offensive bile thrown at me in the most eloquent language...

Wafflyversatile...'Offensive to who? Are imbeciles saying 'oi! don't call him an imbecile, he gives us a bad name'.'...is it wrong that I literally laughed out loud to this?

Huh? Who doesn't want to protect whom?

But that's my point

The word 'bastard' has moved on to mean a nasty/badly behaved person.

And as LRD says...that's more or less how a child born to an unmarried mother was expected to behave - badly

So actually it hasn't moved on any more than the word 'moron' has, has it?

It's just somehow become a perfectly acceptable insult...which is what many people think 'moron' has become.

When Jilted John brought out the song 'Gordon is a Moron'...he meant it as Gordon was an idiot.

But your colleagues are wankers ilovesooty, (I can say that, right? ) because the word spaz isn't universally used as a term in itself. From what I remember at the time it mostly came about because of Joey Deacon being on Blue Peter didn't it? So only 20 or so years ago.

Bastard I mostly associate with William the Conqueror being known as William the Bastard, so to use it in a way that doesn't hark back to it meaning illegitimate just shows what little importance we put on whether parents are married or not.

Yes. originally bastard was insulting because it was accusing them of being born to an unmarried mother.

But as I said, to my mind, society has evolved. It is no longer shameful to be a 'bastard'. No one would call someone a bastard because their mum isn't married. When has anyone every said that in the last 30 years or more?

But the word exisst still as an insult but for a horrible person (man usually)

Many people will have no idea of its old meaning.