to feel very proud of the Scots' reaction to Nigel Farage?

[HeadFairy]

Particularly the man who yelled at him "foreigners are welcome in Scotland, you're not!"

:o

UKIP always makes me think of Jeremy Clarkson and slacks and golfing jumpers and Mason's wives.

yuck

ublik and jaguar drivers and rotary club chairmen.

it's all a bit Alan Partridge

LessMiss - just because there is media coverage criticising Mike Russell (and I'm no Mike Russell fan myself) doesn't mean that Mike Russell isn't....um...English, which is the point that Euphemia was making.

You just seem to really resent the fact that most Scottish voters are more left of centre than YOU. But that's democracy. It's not all tied up with Nationalism either, as there are many, many Scottish voters who wish to remain part of the UK, but want to see Scottish politics - and politics in Westminister - become more progressive. Leftist tendencies in Scotland aren't the result of some devious SNP trick.

Comparing the outcome of proportional representation to Eastern Bloc dictatorships and the Middle East is straight up nutty.

Anyone that mentions dictatorship in relation to our democratically elected Scottish parliament has clearly not studied European law as stated.

The Scottish parliament elections are not first past the post they are PR which is far more representative of the will of the voters in Scotland.

We use Additional Member System here in Scotland - it's a form of PR, but actually combines FPP and PR. Pros and cons of it here www.electoral-reform.org.uk/?PageID=476

Still more democratic that first past the post so saying Scotland akin to a dictatorship is crazy talk.

Anything is more democratic that FPP!

:-)

FannyFifer Anyone that mentions dictatorship in relation to our democratically elected Scottish parliament has clearly not studied European law as stated

Any LLB student is required to gain a pass in EU Law. More the pity Alex Salmond didn't, since he has consistently shown that he confuses direct effect and primary legislation relating to potential implementation of EU Law in an independent Scotland.

Unami Comparing the outcome of proportional representation to Eastern Bloc dictatorships and the Middle East is straight up nutty

Why? These things happen - history has shown that. We didn't study Scotland in Leiden, and I hope in the future students don't study it as an example of how a small country, where more than half of the electorate feel so disenfranchised they do not vote, where there is no effective second revisionary chamber (but instead a secretive committee system) and the legislation that affects people's daily lives is passed by said committees and not Parliament as a whole as secondary, delegated legislation, rather than primary legislation. Where the brightest people move to the neighbouring larger country or abroad, rather than be subject to the insults of the cybernats (its hardly just Mike Russell and I'm sure you know that Unami) and lack of career progression if you don't support the political status quo.

But I take it from the personal insults directed towards me on this thread that the SNP doesn't want to encourage professional educated women like me who work in the private sector in an independent Scotland, although they will of course take anyone regardless of race, as long as they are pro-SNP.

"So if 33% of UKIP voters were previously non-voters, and 20% previously supported Labour, that's still probably about 40% ex-Tories, allowing something of a margin for the Lib Dems."

I think we will see an alliance between UKIP and the Tories. I am beginning to think that Cameron may not be leader at the next election. I think he has been damaged by the rise of UKIP and a deal with UKIP could be on the cards.

If you add up the votes of UKIP and the Tories, they will beat the progressives hands down.

Have you got a problem with the SNP "taking" anyone, regardless of race?

I didn't insult you personally, I said that comparing the outcome of Scotland's democratic government to the Eastern bloc is nuts. Which it is. It's a really odd thing to say. And I'm not an SNP member or voter, or even particularly pro-independence.

"These things happen" is not any kind of argument. As to the other points you've made - voter turnout isn't any lower in Scotland than it is in the rest of the UK, so I see no reason to conclude that Scottish people feel especially disenfranchised. I also think that there's relatively appetite for a second chamber - a la the House of Lords - in Scotland, and that if a second chamber were to be instituted, then it would definitely not be based on hereditary privilege and hereditary peerage. If anything, I feel that that House of Lords in Westminister is a gross affront to national democracy - abhorrent in this day and age. As is an (uncodified) constitutional monarchy, in my opinion.

I also see absolutely zero evidence of a "lack of career progression if you don't support the political status quo". It may have been your personal experience - was it? In the legal profession, really? But I can't imagine that it is in any way common whatsoever, and sounds a bit fanciful, to be honest.

As to the brightest people leaving..Um - compared to who? Compared to equally bright people who stayed in Scotland?

I just came across an article on the NF issue, and one quotation seems to sum up this doom mongering quite well

"It is an imaginative mind that sees a peaceful, diverse, and inclusive movement for independence and concludes that the endpoint is ethnic nationalism. It is the same mind that sees a rowdy student protest directed at an eccentric politician and proclaims the end of democracy creeping round the corner."

Article is here, in case anyone feels like reading about two idiots (George Galloway and NF in one go)

nationalcollective.com/2013/05/20/dear-george/

Dan lets himself down with "As the No campaign has busied itself with flag-waving and nationalist triumphalism, the old Labour argument has been lost"

The No campaign represents the views of the majority in this country. Dan appears to have conveniently forgotten his in his simpering claim that only the pro-indies are "peaceful, diverse, and inclusive"

I agree, and I'm not crazy about the article's overall position. I think pro-independence people all too often write as if independence was a foregone conclusion, and conveniently forget that most Scottish voters would vote no, or are undecided.

I just thought that one quotation was quite apt, and just linked because I quoted from it.

Unami Have you got a problem with the SNP "taking" anyone, regardless of race?

No. I'm not fully British myself. But I do wish you and some other posters would lose the tendency to tell me what I think.

"These things happen" is not any kind of argument

I think the failings of socialism/communism and the suffering of millions under it doesn't really require to be argued.

As to the other points you've made - voter turnout isn't any lower in Scotland than it is in the rest of the UK

No, but it is a smaller country, so you would hope to see a more direct link between the electorate and voter turnout. Being a small country, it is of course easier to control and manipulate. And more so if it became independent from its larger neighbour.

I also think that there's relatively appetite for a second chamber - a la the House of Lords - in Scotland, and that if a second chamber were to be instituted, then it would definitely not be based on hereditary privilege and hereditary peerage. If anything, I feel that that House of Lords in Westminister is a gross affront to national democracy - abhorrent in this day and age. As is an (uncodified) constitutional monarchy, in my opinion

It doesn't matter whether theres an "appetite" for it or not. You tend to hope that those in a position to implement have the knowledge and will to do what is best. Scotland had an opportunity to set up a Parliamentary system that was the admiration of the world. It didn't take that opportunity, and instead opted for vital decisions to be made by committee, behind closed doors.

As to the brightest people leaving..Um - compared to who? Compared to equally bright people who stayed in Scotland? You seriously deny that there is a brain drain to England from Scotland? Really?

Your quotation is yet again prescriptive - do you find that telling people what they should think every works? Or do you find it alienates people instead?

I'm not a UKIP supporter at all, but people in Scotland did vote for them in past elections, and despite it being a small number, it is completely undemocratic to deny that (a) they did so vote and (b) that they were wrong in doing so and will not do so in future.

I think that Galloway is worried about nationalism of any type, because he knows that it will split the left and eventually lead to a weakening of the left (with Galloway et al in one camp - pro Union, and other leftists in the independence camp). He worries that in the end it will be the defeat of the left.

I think on this issue, LessMis's worries about the future are in some way similar to Galloway's - that there is a danger of a rise of nationalism and a move to a less tolerant society.

I think there is possibly a point that once you let the genie of nationalism out of the bottle, will you be able to control it and make it tolerant?

Will it begin to split people? Will Galloway be seen as not on side by those who are more nationalist than him? He is an old style international socialist. I think he foresses a time when there may be less room for that line of thought in a socialist movement that is more nationalist?

"Any true internationalist understands that the bonds between people come from our shared humanity, not our common citizenship."

That is what Dan says to Galloway.
The problem with it is that any realist realises that it is rubbish. The bonds of locality and region and common citizenship are always stronger than the bonds of universal, global internationalism.

Even though Galloway is an internationalist, I think he knows that, and that is what he worries about.

This is what Galloway says

"Meanwhile the message sent to millions of English people who support Farage, to investors, tourists and customers, is that Scotland is not open for business if your face ? or your flag ? doesn?t fit. For me Farage is a right-wing populist Europhobe ? the anti-thesis of everything I stand for. But he is not a racist ? still less a fascist, and has every right to speak anywhere in the United Kingdom ? so long as it exists."

This is crap, because everybody knows that they were rabble of 50 socialist worker types who are insignificant and are in every town in England too.

Galloway was the one making so much noise about Thatcher's funeral (champion of the working classes and miners that he claims to be) and yet here he pretends to be worried about what investors and millions of English people think about how farage was treated. A total joke.

Here he is sticking up for Farage's right to speak It shows how worried him and the establishment parties are about the independence issue.

"Scotland is not open for business if your face ? or your flag ? doesn?t fit"

He is a joker. What message did he send to business and investors and tourists and millions of English people8 when he slagged off Margaret Thatcher - the darling of business , investors , tourists and millions of English people*

I know this message will be deleted but I don't care.
ODFO Claig, you are a conspiracy theorist and IMO a total loon.
I have to leave every thread that you appear on as you totally take over with your weird DM shite.
There said it, and that was cathartic.

'and IMO a total loon'

Do you mean a swivel-eyed loon?

'There said it, and that was cathartic.'

If it makes you happy to slag other people off, then keep doing it, you obviously need to let off your bile.

Well, not exactly bile Claig.
But... nah I give up.

LessMiss, on one hand you say that Scotland, as a small country, is "easier to control and manipulate" and claim that its Parliamentary system is undemocratic. On the other hand you say that it doesn't matter whether or not people in Scotland actually want a second chamber, but "you tend to hope that those in a position to implement have the knowledge and will to do what is best". So are you actually for grassroots democracy, or would you rather have decisions made by a political elite "with the knowledge and will to do what is best", because that runs rather against the grain of your apparent concern for a lack of democracy in Scotland?

You also say that "a smaller country" you would "hope to see a more direct link between the electorate and voter turnout". Based on what trends? Based on its geographical size or the size of its population? Some people have suggested that there might be a connection with either or both, but I'm not aware that its in any way proven, and others have suggested that high turnouts correlate with high population density, rather than the size, and though Scotland may be small, much it is still sparsely populated. There are more convincing arguments to be made along other lines - that proportional voting systems tend to encourage people to vote - but that's another issue.

I don't think the current Scottish system is perfect, but, again, what of Westminister - since that's the system it is currently tiered with? What democratic advantages does hereditary peerage offer ordinary people?

Yes, lots of talented people have left Scotland to work elsewhere - which is fantastic. I don't think any civil society should discourage people from seeking global. Many people return with new skills, which is great, and others settle elsewhere for good. I think that there's been a failure in the past to capitalize on the potential links between the Scottish diaspora and Scotland, which may be something which begins to change as Scotland begins to assert more control over its international relationships, something not really possible pre-devolution. So, do talented people move away? Yes, of course, not necessarily a bad thing, and it's part of the reason why Scotland would like to have more control over its immigration policy and attract more skilled workers and talented from overseas, which I think is great. Do I think that it is only the brightest people who leave Scotland, leaving behind a hapless nation of dull and dim people? No. I think that some bright people leave, some bright people stay.

As for UKIP in Scotland, earlier in this thread someone mentioned what percentage of the vote they last got, and its was tiny, around 2%. I'm not undemocratically denying that they did so, but I'm not worried about a surge of UKIP support in Scotland in the slightest.

As to the notion that you can't intimate that people's political beliefs are wrong - well I disagree, I think you absolutely can. Political beliefs are there to be explored and disputed, and defended and rejected. No one's political beliefs have to be treated as if they are sacrosanct, they're not a matter of faith.