To think, actually, WOH gets harder as they get older.

[Tournament]

I've worked (at least p-t) all my life. It was a choice for me, I wanted to get out to work, keep my career etc, although I did very much step back for a while, I always kept my hand in IYSWIM.

When DC were tiny, there was always some feeling of guilt at not always being there, but the day to day practicalities were easy. You got them up and dressed, bundled them in the car, handed them over to GP, childminder or nursery and then it was someone else's job to do everything for them until it was practically bedtime. They were cared for, fed and entertained without me ever really having to do anything. (When I was at work). I'd collect on my way home, take them home and put them to bed.

Now they're 9 & 11, there's homework to supervise, clubs to organise, taxi services to provide, sports and school events to watch (or to have to explain you can't) friendship issues or other worries to listen to and if I'm not around after school, they can't have friends back and they can't go to other's houses.

Indeed.

I don't agree. I earn rather a lot. I work based at home. The commute is zero. Also most two career couples share home so one gets home earlier one night and the other the next. You can pick up emails once you are home and people get used to the time you do leave. Loads of women own businesses and set their own rules. However I certainly agree that those women and men who like their work (and families) tend to put a lot of effort into both and to be successful at anything often means working hard.

however there is working hard and working smart. If I earn the UK minimum weekly full time 2wage in an hour (which I think I just about do) then I am working smart rather than hard. The fact I choose to work more than one hour a week I suppose is a choice but then it is a choice not to be on benefits in the UK. if people think parents and children including fathers should never be out of the sight of a child under 5 then the logical conclusion is never work and claim off the state, both of you so each child has 100% of a parent.

Women married to sexist men of course have a much harder deal. If you earn double what your husband does it is unlikely he will expect you to be the one rushing home every night and you'd be a fool to get yourself into that position. Much better if you try to leave work at 5.30 or 6 on 2 nights a week, he does 2 more and the nanny stays until 8 on the fifth night.

I also think that this is the only real issue stopping women from scaling the same career heights as men en masse. Everything else misses the point.

There is nothing wrong with having help in the house, and, with several kids of differing ages, its a good idea. Having an extra adult to help out would take the pressure off, and allow the parent to be less put upon, and maybe get a bit more actual relaxed time with dc, which is better than one frazzled, knackered mum trying to do every little thing.
I think that your set up is a good one sadday. It us nicer for dc to be at home, and its a nice job for someone if they are paid ok. My mum is still in touch with one of our childminders! She was great- she was laid back, but was there if we needed her, usually just to chat to.

"Also most two career couples share home so one gets home earlier one night and the other the next."

No they don't. They have someone else take care of the DC.

Your personal, anecdotal story is not representative of the constraints of institutional/corporate life, which is the reality for nearly everyone.

We cross posted. Bs means that sexist men cause failure of female careers or she logically must mean that - that where men exopect women to bury their careers on the altar of male career ambition they and their families suffer for it. If instead you share your desire to be home for bed time etc when children are young then it works out much better all round.

Also bear in mind the time when children are little is very very short even if you spread it over as many years as I have. I am almost into my fourth decade as a working mother with children - youngest just left prep school, oldest 28. So that 30 year career as a mother which will in due course be a 50 or 60 year career as a full time working mother most of it will be with children who are not under 5. So if we accept the period when they are under 5 is very hard whether you are working or not or part time as not you can do a lot more favours for your children and you and your long term earning potential if you dont' lose your never and go part time and lose 50 years of earning power at £100k a year or whatever just so you have a few years of doing the terribly dull school run and cooking endless meals at 5pm. It is not worth it.

Don't put words in my mouth Xenia. This is not an issue of sexism, it is an issue of parenting (and I use that word on purpose).

i love working,im alone parent working pt.i think it gives me self worth and gives my son a good work ethic

"cooking endless meals at 5pm" - that is my absolute least favourite time of day! Sometimes I put them in the car and they eat at the local supermarket cafe - is that outsourcing of parenting as I'm not cooking?
I think most people would agree that working five days a week and not seeing your kids till 8 o'clock at night is not a good thing But we then all disagree about exactly how much time away from a parent is a good thing. Some dcs with a sahm spend a lot of after-school time in clubs, so not seeing anyone for those times. (By the way how does any child go to scouts in the afternoon? They are evening groups, and need to be given they are staffed by adult volunteers with day jobs!). Some people are also very lucky to have family to help them out, and those who rely on paid help to go to a party etc presumably don't have a gran popping in to do the same.
I have chosen the part-time route post ML, and while I'm not in any high-flying field (education) not wanting full-time work just now rules me out of a new job or a promotion. Have hit a wall in career terms. I do hate it when we end up talking about out-sourcing parenting. Never seems to be an issue for men to hand it over to their partners does it.

Iggi has it. These comments are never directed at men. They are never told why did you have children at all if you work. Women are.

Both of us chose to get home by 6 or 6.30 most days. Obviously that does affect your working life in many careers but I know a lot of men who like to get back to do bed time stories etc too. If you have more than two children it is very helpful if both parents are there. My father even in the 1960s did that - he often did a story to the youngest whilst my mother did the oldest.

We also ensured we lived near where one of us worked which helped too.

I do encourage my children to pick careers where ultimately they might work for themselves or set up on their own. It can give you a lot more money and power and control over your life and is one reason women are particularly good at running businesses.

I would say to younger women play the longer game - think about your 30 years post children and what you think your career will be like at age 50 - 75 or 80 or whatever and whether you will like that work and whether it will pay what you want it to pay.

It's difficult to generalise.
If there are two parents at home then seeing one parent at five thirty pm and the second at seven pm is acceptable. In my case once a week I am not back until 11 pm.I would not outsource that to my lady, only to dh.
It also depends very much n the child. My elder children were very lively and needed a lot of careful parenting esp when together, my youngest ds is very easy going .

I agree the ideal for dual career couples is to take turns coming home in time for pickup and dinner etc and that is what we do. Because we earn similar money - I earn a bit more actually - there is no question of my work getting second priority.

However I agree with both points of view as I think it is really really hard without a nanny or similar and there seems to be a huge leap from jobs where it's possible to regularly leave "on time" and jobs where you can't, with nothing in between.

If we had another DC we would have to have a nanny and I would see less of the kids cos it would be easier not to HAVE to come home which would be a shame. But I think that nannies can help if it means that the parents get quality time eg for 1 hr after dinner rather than me trying to cook and blackberry and organise everyone then losing my rag cos I'm stressed!

I agree with xenia all full time working couples I know have one parent home before the other, and it just swaps round.

We pay our housekeeper £12 p/h she is around 3:30-7:30 on Fridays (the one day we both WOH). So the dcs can chill in their own environment, she also cooks us all dinner :). Not cheap though and is deliberately Friday's so no homework. Personally I wouldn't want this solution everyday.

My solution at the moment is to take DD to work with me. I'm a dance teacher, so she just joins in at the back of my/my colleagues' classes, which she loves, until my mum can pick her up. It works brilliantly at the moment, but I'm dreading the day she decides she doesn't like dancing anymore! I'm incredibly lucky to have a job that means I can do that though.

I'm a single mum with a fulltime job and I find it harder now that mine are 12 and 13. When they were younger I got longer after they went to bed to do "stuff" I wanted/needed to do. Now I find I'm running out of energy by "bedtime" and getting hardly any "me" time. I'm even one of the lucky ones in that mine aren't too demanding and are capable of whipping up the evening meal if I've had an especially bad/tiring day (so I suppose there is a bit of swings and roundabouts)

Agree with ts, that you lose the evenings when you have teenagers. There comes a point when you may go to sleep before they even do. We have almost 24/7 someone awake - if you add 3 teenagers to two working parents plus twin babies feeding every few hours at weekends you might get teenagers in bed to noon with babies having been up since 5am.

The classic solution if you had a spare room was a cheap au pair once children were at school although we never did that as I did not want someone living in. There are loads of unemployed out there are present and plenty are very bright university students who are good with chidlren if you live in a town. I f you advertise you will get masses of people who can do school collection bring children back to your house cook for them and make sure they start homework/do music practice and work from say 3 - 6pm weekdays. It can be worth taking that hit on cost if it means you can keep a career on track which you will then enjoy for 20 years after children leave home when a lot of ex housewives get rather fed up have no money and their husbands disappear with the money with a younger woman.

To be honest I like having time with my 12 year old ds in the evenings. Dd in bed and this really is the time when we talk. At weekends when they are both up late and manic, I am lucky enough to have another sitting room although we have film nights and stuff. I find it nice although sometimes I do need to work evenings from home but just work in the same room. Key for working while being a parent is getting to a decent level in your career before having kids so you can choose your hours and be respected even if you leave at 4.30 to be home with your kids - many men do leave early now too. My age group men seem to be child friendly. When I was married we used to work different hours around the kids but as some have suggested my 50/50 man became a man child. He is back to 50/50 now he has no kids and moved far enough away to be out of the link. I had a woman who came in the mornings and paid £8 per hour. It worked well which meant I could go to work early and leave early.

Xenia- just one little thing. Not all of us have the ability or potential (or good fortune) to earn £100k a year. I'd say you were in the minority really.

My 13yo DS asked me the other day if I could go full time, so we could get more stuff and go on a proper holiday!!!

I'm certainly finding it harder as they get older at the moment although having my children in two different primary schools isn't helping. I expect things to get slightly less manic come September when they are both at the same school.

We both work full time and arrange our hours to suit. When DH isn't home in the mornings, I am, and vice versa for the afternoons.

I wanted to add to the mix that the wrap around care at my DCs' school is full with a 12 month waiting list. So you can't just assume they will get in and the decision to work or not is in your hands. I have a toddler at daycare and to pay for an after school nanny in addition would mean it wasn't worth me working. So I don't any more. It's a great novelty this year to have two free days to myself but can see it grating long term.

Black, yes but just because people are female does not mean they are not clever or hard working enough to earn £100k and their men are (not that I could easily live on as little as £100k anyway)..... and the same principle applies if both husband and wife earn £20k a year - you share things fairly and do not prioritise a man's career just because he has a penis. Yours is just as important. you are just as important. That leads to happier relationships - fairness and sharing and mutual respect of the career of the other.

"That leads to happier relationships - fairness and sharing and mutual respect of the career of the other."

Yes, Xenia, and your suggested course of action, which of course you followed yourself, led to your long, happy marriage that will end with "and death..."

Hard to argue that mutual respect of each other's careers is a bad thing, surely.