To stop using 'punishment' as a behaviour consequence.I'm totally floundering.

[gertrudetrain]

I have used everything. Bribery, naughty step, counting, quiet but firm voice, shouting, grounding, withdrawing privileges, ignoring, killing with kindness, love bombing, strict routines, consistent responses, clear boundaries, locking in rooms crying. I am devastated to admit that I have even resorted to smacking once.

I work in Children's services, I know all about attachment, additional needs, I know about parenting capacity, I know about parental response conditioning child behaviours. I may know this. I can not, however, get my 3 dc's to behave. DS1 has just railroaded and manipulated me as he always does when my parents are here. DS2 refused to leave the park without being dragged out. Toddler DD will not stop tan trumming and asking for food and drink. They are 10, 5 and 2 years. Punishment just does not work. Do I just explain that what they have done is wrong and stop with the ineffectual sanctions, just communicate their bad behaviour verbally? Society only uses 'punishment' techniques for adults who do something very wrong e.g breaking the law. Should I just go with this? If they do something law breaking only punish them then? I know even typing that it is a ridiculous idea. Things are so bad that I no longer have any confidence in my mothering. I need a bunch of strangers on the internet to say either 'yes just communicating will work' or 'don't be ridiculous, children need tangible consequences you must be doing it wrong'. I am crap.

My DCs are similar ages to yours (almost 9, 6 and 2.5) if the LO is playing up, I often ask her "are you hungry?" And the answer is often yes. For tantrums with her, I try to go down to her level, I tell her the behaviour is unacceptable then either brazen it out, put her in the pushchair or I have made her walk with me by firmly holding her hand.

DS is very gentle but scatty, withdrawing the computer/ ipad is usually enough to reinforce expected behaviours.

DD1 at 6 is my most trying. She talks ncessantly, sings tunelessly and thinks DD2 is her own personal dolly. With her, I make sure she has listened to instructions by asking her to repeat them, I give her a 5 minute warning to prepare her for what is coming next, then a 2 and 1 minute warning, although not on accurate timescales. When she doesn't do as she is told she gets the naughty step, although this is decreasing in frequency lately.

But yes, they know all the buttons to press, it's their job, they are kids after all.

YY to all who say trying too many techniques. I'm sure my job doesn't help. I go on ALOT of training and often bring it hone thinking this is the answer to my prayers, and try it. Need to seperate it out from work children to my children. I think accepting that your dc's aren't a mirror reflection of yourself, they have their own stuff affecting their behaviour is a really hard lesson because it requires you to get outside your own thinking. I think DS not leaving the park is him directly disobeying me= no respect. He's going to be a granny basher when he is older, oh God I am useless.

When really I need to think he's five. He just wants to climb. Thanks everyone for your wise words.

at BastardDog that quote should be saved in a classics thread all of its own!

Not in a position to offer any advice. I only have one dd and am tearing my hair out most of the time. Tried the same list of things.

V. interesting to read about anxiety being a factor in all this (I over-react out of anxiety too). I'm not a very confident parent. I never know if I am being too strict or too slack. The answer is that there probably isn't a "best way". And as long as we don't give up completely, and try and muddle through, we are probably doing ok-ish. (I have days when I can't quite persuade myself to believe this though.)

This one is worth a try - link is to actual MN reviews, so it must be good.

The problem with to bad behaviour all the time is the feeling of constant nagging that it creates and the feeling that they are being naughty.

I would take back the control and decide on an initial 5 family rules.
Mine were :
Sitting at the table for mealtimes: no rudeness to the cook rudeness meant you were removed from the table.
Walking safely near the road/traffic : if you didnt then you hold my hand forever
Bedtime is not negotiable : you get up you go back ( not if teething poorly etc.)
Teeth brushed twice per day : you have a choice, you can do it or I will.
No hitting,biting, bashing each other ever: You do not get to do if you hit other people.

Once you get a good hold on these things and you must be consistent then and only then move onto other things .
Otherwise it feels like you are constantly on their tails which can be wearing and counterproductive.It also stops the anxiety of am I too strict /too lax .
There are battles not worth fighting such as toddlers wearing nowt but a tshit and wellies,dirt,eating dog biscuits ( i did that!).
I found putting these rules in place really helped me to enjoy my children as well.

Sorry I meant to add the rules can be anything you deem best ,my list was just an example.

If it is leaving the park : give a warning etc and then leave,take them with you ,the consequence is that even kicking ,screaming etc you are in control and its time to go .Im sure Im not the only parent who has exited many at time with a toddler, under my arm ,rigid as a board!

Just cos you know it doesn't mean you can do it I worked in childcare for years and the dds still ran rings round me find something that works and stick to it, oh and see the explaining to them thing doesn't work , I find we are going and we are going now used to work

you are not crap just under siege by your children I am sure we have all been there, IMO actions and reactions work best if you don't do Thisthen That will happen , so a warning then a punishment if that means removing them from the situation then that is what you can do, and then you say well I did tell you , you can ask children to do something till you are blue in the face, they dont want to do what you ask but If you tell them then they should behave better, work out what you expect from your children and go from there

Vivienne

Read the book. It isn't a manual, and like anything you read it may just give you a few ideas to try.

Basically it helped me think about how to avoid those little wearing everyday confrontations like putting coats on.

It also invites you to lighten up a bit and enter into the child's thinking

It's not an excuse for permissiveness.

playful parenting book

YANBU. It doesn't work ime.

Talking and explaining, expecting them to behave rather to be unruly. Giving them as much independence as you can, even if it makes you cringe because they don't 'do it right'. Being a teacher rather than the one who gives rules and punishment.

Actually that last one works very well for me. It forces me to think that they are still learning and to assume that if they haven't done x or y, my first reaction is that actually they haven't quite 'understood' the whys. And let's be honest, few 5yo or 10 yo will actually really understand why ot can be important to have a tidy bedroom when within 5 minutes of getting up the room will be as much as a mess as before they started to clean...

Oh btw, I agree that being permissive and letting them get away with murder isn't the solution either.

Hmm, read the reviews on the playful parenting book on Amazon. It's amazing how many people stress about it, feel much less alone now. I think you make a good point about being a teacher lady I often think I'm more policing my FC's than teaching. It's really not what I had in mind when I chose to become a mum.

I also think that maybe over thinking it is sapping the joy. I'm constantly on edge that my upbringing wasn't too good and I'm perpetuating the cycle. My parents swung from not giving a crap to being really hard line and I am constantly worrying that I'm not doing it right because I didn't learn about parenting from them.

DC's even. Stupid phone.

I agree that being permissive does as much harm as being relentlessly punishing. It's a struggle when you have no point of reference from your own upbringing.

Charlie Taylor's book "Divas and Dictators" is fantastic for working on kids' behaviour.

I'm very calm when I tell off dd1 but at 4 the naughty step stopped having an affect so we introduced losing a toy... Dd1s reactions? Oh well i've got loads anyway. Fast forward 6 months later... She's now gone to the other extreme saying comments such as "sometimes I think it would be better if I hasn't been born" and "when you tell me off I feel like i'm not family"! She's 5, I dread to think what her teen years will involve :(

princess the child who can emotionally manipulate at a young age is usually very clever so at least yr DD has brains! DS1 is very much like this, today he said 'I can't help ignoring you in front of Nanna, I have behaviour issues.' Little guy. He hasn't he just knows which buttons to press.

• should say git.

gertrudetrain, don't worry about about your own upbringing.
You are clearly aware your behaviours and spend quite a bit of time analysing what you are doing etc...

That alone will make a HUGE difference between being a crap parent and a 'good enough' one.

For me, the other thing that is really important is to concentrate on relationship and the quality of my relationship with my dcs. I know that, if it is good, we trust and love each other, then everything will fall into place.
And that means sometimes also learning to bend my own rules for them, spend time with them and enjoy their company on their terms rather than always trying to do things 'perfectly'. Sometimes being a good enough parent is just watching a crap program on TV with the dcs.

I'm reading 'peacful parents, happy kids -how to stop yelling and start connecting'

It's very different to how we've been bringing up our kids and to how I was brought up but I think she's really onto something

Sorry I don't know how to do the links thing! The author Laura Markham also does a newsletter that you can get emailed to you about twice a week - google 'AHA Parenting'

Non-punishing parenting book.

www.wombatbooks.com.au/the-shepherdess

Marking my weary parenting bones place to read tomorrow.

Alfie Kohn's "unconditional parenting" argues the case for parenting without punishments and rewards.

I aso recommend "How to Talk when kids won't listen" and "Playful Parenting". They are both really good reads. Also "Sibling Rivalry" by Faber and Mazlish as well, helps with sibling harmony, gives you tips on encouraging kids to sort their own problems rather than telling tales.

Playful parenting doesn't say you have to be playful all the time to get a child to comply more that by the parent making the effort to be more playful the child-parent relationship is improved.

I've used very little punishment over the years and the children's behaviour is generally fine. Glowing reports from school and from friend's parents after sleepovers etc. They do still hit each other, perhaps once every 8 weeks or so, when they get really frustrated. But then various punishments didn't stop me and my brothers hitting each other when we were growing up and none of us are violent adults. Most of the time the DCs sort out their differences in a civilised manner. It's a joy to eavesdrop on their negotiations.

I'm not proud of it, but I use bribes treats and distraction to get my five year old out of the park. You've just got to word it right. "nearly time to go home guys. Because you've played so nicely, would you like an ice lolly from the freezer when we get home?" it also helps if I give him a carton of juice to drink on the way home. I wave it at him while I'm standing at the gate. He gets water in the park, juice on the way home. We also talk about which park to go to next time or when.

I work in children's services (admin role) and it's hard to know all about these wonderful parenting techniques and try very hard to not beat myself up about them. My main mantra is be positive towards kids in everything you do with them. Easier said than done, I know.

Why beat yourself up about it Peppermint? it sounds good to me. Being positve is miles better than "No" and "because I say so' parenting it also works better.