To stop using 'punishment' as a behaviour consequence.I'm totally floundering.

[gertrudetrain]

I have used everything. Bribery, naughty step, counting, quiet but firm voice, shouting, grounding, withdrawing privileges, ignoring, killing with kindness, love bombing, strict routines, consistent responses, clear boundaries, locking in rooms crying. I am devastated to admit that I have even resorted to smacking once.

I work in Children's services, I know all about attachment, additional needs, I know about parenting capacity, I know about parental response conditioning child behaviours. I may know this. I can not, however, get my 3 dc's to behave. DS1 has just railroaded and manipulated me as he always does when my parents are here. DS2 refused to leave the park without being dragged out. Toddler DD will not stop tan trumming and asking for food and drink. They are 10, 5 and 2 years. Punishment just does not work. Do I just explain that what they have done is wrong and stop with the ineffectual sanctions, just communicate their bad behaviour verbally? Society only uses 'punishment' techniques for adults who do something very wrong e.g breaking the law. Should I just go with this? If they do something law breaking only punish them then? I know even typing that it is a ridiculous idea. Things are so bad that I no longer have any confidence in my mothering. I need a bunch of strangers on the internet to say either 'yes just communicating will work' or 'don't be ridiculous, children need tangible consequences you must be doing it wrong'. I am crap.

Consequences and punishment are different things. I try, try very much being the operative word, to use consequences rather than punishments. Consequences are the natural result of actions whereas punishment is something unpleasant for the sake of retribution or teaching aversion.

Consequence would be "You argued with me about leaving the park when I asked you for 20 minutes so now we don't have time to go to the cafe like we had planned."
Punishment would be "You argued with me about leaving the park so you can't watch TV tomorrow/I'm taking X toy away etc"

I try to point out good consequences too, like "Thank you for being so co-operative/helpful/whatever today. It really helped us all have a nice time."

Start reading! Toddler taming and various older kids behaviour books. Check out amazon ratings and reviews first.

I try to stick with, when you... It makes me feel.... because...

E.g. When you run away from me in the shop I feel worried, because you might get lost. Or, when you hit me I feel sad, because it hurts me.

It seems to work with DD (2), I think it's because it makes them understand the consequences of their behaviour and teaches them to think before they act.

yy cinnamon

Do what you need to do which works for you.

I've abolished time out in our house. Ds1 used to our himself in it when he didn't want to do something!

Now we have traffic lights. Green is where they are at all the time, first warning they get put on amber and second they get put on red. Red means whatever toy/activity they are playing at the time gets put out of reach until they can apologise properly. Then they go back to green and start again. Each new day is a fresh start and with ds if he eats his lunch nicely but is on amber,it's a fresh start for him too (he's only 2).

The visual traffic light I made with their photo really helps them and there's a box with a traffic light on for the confiscated activity (if it fits).

It works for us at the moment. Ds1 can even explain the system to others it's made that much of an impact.

I find it useful as it gives us some time to reflect on what's going on without wading in and overreacting, which I am very prone to doing.

I think your job definitely has a lot to do with your anxiety. I'm a TA...the training you do and the things you see or hear all adds up to you thinking "There but for the grace of god..." and you are terrified that your own children will turn out like those you know about, because you are "recognising" traits.

Parenting IS hard,and we ALL make mistakes. I think it is actually harder now my three are 13,16 and 21, however, they do seem to be fairly well adjusted, under the circumstances!

Do you know what, no they aren't really badly behaved. I have looked at my expectations and I know I can sometimes expect too much. They're not bad but they just annoy me so so much. I think I don't deal with the half formed brain too well. I catastrophise so much about how they will turn out and I think my anxiety comes out when they are naughty because I think I'm failing them

this so much, i couold have written it myself, essp the anxitey of how they are going to grow up, its part of the parcel i think, and as i a friend says to me, if you didnt worry about it, then youd be a crap parent.

If punishment doesn't work then ditch it whenever that seems best. No point in something that doesn't work.

That said, they outnumber you. It's no surprise they get better of you. Admire their resourcefulness.

I have recommended this site a few times but I think its really good and has helped me lots.

www.ahaparenting.com/parenting-tools/discipline

gertrudetrain you are not crap. I understand totally why you would think that tho. I used to think I was doing a really crap job because my children did not listen to me and seemed to have no respect for me. The thing is tho', if you think and believe you are crap - they will too.

My children are adopted and I have had a lot of similar problems with my DD and sometimes DS too. The level of anger and defiance was off the charts. I then heard about a book called Beyond Consequences Logic and Control by Heather Forbes - it changed our lives overnight. Although the book is mostly for parents of adopted children of trauma I can see how the logic and techniques applied would work for all families. It really helped us understand how our reactions to the behaviours made things so much worse. It has taught me how to really listen to what is going on and understand what is driving a certain behaviour within the child. For instance, previously if at the end of a visit to the park my child didn't want to leave and played up I would have got cross and threatened that I would not bring them again or that I would leave without them or get stressed and shout at them that I have to make tea or whatever. Now, I will go to them and try to empathise and listen to what they are saying. You don't want to go? Yeah, I know its really tough when you're having fun and I can see that you're having lots of fun today/ have made a new friend etc. Let them know you have heard them and understood what they are saying. Allow them 5 more minutes but remind them you need to leave because you need to prepare tea, catch the shops or the bus etc but you will be able to come back tomorrow/weekend - always try to give a positive. Do all of this while remaining calm and in control - this is the real toughie:) There have been times when I could have gladly walked out and never returned when things were so bad at home but honestly, this book has really helped me see the good in my children and to understand and see their needs. I'm not saying they do everything they are asked (sadly) and I certainly don't manage to remain calm every time but the occasions that I do, I can see the difference and I can see how important it is sometimes to let them know you have heard their/feelings/ fears.
If we say to a 5 year old "come on, we're going and if you don't come now we will never come here again" he is not going to want to leave because he is thinking this may be his last chance to ever enjoy a park.

Another book I like is How to Behave So Your Children Will Too! by Sal Severe.

You are a good mum and you are not crap. None of our children come with instructions (unfortunately) and you are doing the best you can for them but remember, you also need to do something for you too:) Good luck

Lozzamack That book sounds very good to me. It's odd that some parents seem to expect DCs to react to 'commands' like soldiers and not to think through HOW we are sounding when we say things like 'stupid child clear up your pigsty of a bedroom right now!!" we wouldn't talk to friends or partners like that but we expect respect and obedience from a child.It's bizzarre.

I'm not perfect at all and nor are my DCs but they do seem to respond and respect me because I respect their point of view.

ppeatfruit

Yes, it's true.

And yet .. it actually came as a bit of a shock to me that children do not do as they are asked,(let alone, told first time .

A lot of parenting comes down to a drip drip approach, having faith that the big messages (listening, not being violent, self control, respect for others etc) will get through eventually.

But jamie it's just really how WE like to be talked to. I don't like to be told brusquely to do something by anyone whoever it is! To be involved in the action is nice like "shall we see how many dollies (or whatever) we can get in this basket in 2 mins." And then show them your watch as you BOTH do it so it's educational as well!!

ppeat

Oh yes. That's where the Playful parenting book, and How to Talk helped

I think that, when stressed, some of us revert to authoritarian, some to permissive, and forget the big picture - that it's all about the Relationship we are building with our DCs

EXACTLY jamie

Ahh, a much much better and more thorough book for you is this one. It goes with the aha parenting website mentioned above but is SO much better.

It isn't really just about stopping yelling, I cant really explain it very well, its about how to develop a much improved relationship with our children so that THEY feel much happier and behave differently and there is almost no reason left for us to want to yell. It is a "no punishment" approach but not a "permissive anything goes parenting" approach. Just wish I read it years ago.

just want to share a thought, I had a nightmare child and we tried everything we could, nothing made a difference. I now look back and see we were not consistent, if something did not seem to work we tried something else so actually he never really learnt the 'rules' as we kept moving the goalposts. we also spoke to him in a far too complicated grown up way... i can see it in the family videos, it's actually cringe making hearing us both doing the endless reasoning and explaining why and why not and consequences etc etc and on and on when he was far too young to get it. so advice from me is keep it simple and consistent and try for time out for yourself sometimes. we did eventually in his teens learn to choose our battles reward the good and try to ignore the bad. He is a reasonably nice 20 year old now but above all he knows he is loved.

Must be quite a number of us self confessed crap mums then!
Have tried whatever my mum and dad did with me, triple p twice, and I still have the most difficult manipulating 7.5 year old girl!
Am seriously thinking of Laura Markham, I am sick and fed up of rewards, consequences etc. She just weighs these things to see if the consequence is really that bad and how she can get round it!

Bit old this isn't it?

Current at any time, I imagine!

I just used to say they had to the count of 3 to do something or there would be a consequence. I never said what that consequence would be, so they didn't know how bad it would be. Then they couldn't decide whether it was worth it to continue with the bad behaviour or not. It also saved me from thinking up consequences all the time.
You only have to follow through a few times religiously, before they realise that you mean business. If I did have to find a consequence, then, if I could, I would say something like - well we were going to the park but now we're not. Otherwise I chose something that I could easily carry out and not regret. It gave me thinking time to decide what to do rather than issue hasty punishments that you regret or backfire which backfire.

This certainly worked when they were younger. Now they are older i do the same but don't actually count. I ask them a couple of times then say there will be a consequence if they don't do it now/within the next however long. If they then get too angry to take it on board, I leave it and wait for them to calm down. When they are in that frame of mind then it quickly escalates so its best to address it later. Then later, we have a conversation and they are normally willing to accept the need for a consequence. I always revisit it when they are calmer though. It doesn't get forgotten. Xbox and tv work best for mine now they are older.

Good luck. Be consistent. A few harsh punishments that you feel guilty about, saves them from future punishments, as life is far more pleasant for you all when they behave.

Sorry. I would say something like we were going to the park but now we're not - even if I had no intention of going to the park in the first place. They thought they were being punished but as I wasn't going to go anyway, it was an easy punishment for me to dole out.

Whatever advice you can receive, it will be based on people's experiences of what has worked for them. It does seem like you have tried pretty much everything! All I can say is that, in terms of how children turn out when they become adults, I really would not worry. My brother and I ran rings around our parents and grandparents at times, and looking back I do feel we were appauling to cause such worry and stress. But now, I would say we haven't turn out too bad and try to be good citizens.

Children invariably play up to their closest carer/s, as my granny said "familiarity breeds contempt". Unruly kids are often little angels when in the company of people they are not familiar with because they feel less relaxed and are uncertain about the consequences of their bad behaviour so they dont try it on in the same way!

It seems crass to say 'be patient' when you have the patience of a Saint, but what I mean is that you will find that your maternal love will eventually pay dividends and your children will turn out fine, because your concern for their well-being is evident, underlying your comments of sheer exasperation and frustration. You are not crap!! Just exhausted and worn down!

I have spent alot of time on parenting threads, read the books, looked at Kohn.
= STILL, NONE-THE-WISER

Conclusion = Let it go and try not to worry. Because that is pointless.