"F is not a fail"

[MrsBombastic]

This is what my DD's maths teacher told her class yesterday.

DD is 15, she is not gifted in the maths department but even she (and I) was shocked and frankly devastated that she got an F in her mock GCSE.

She was not the only one, apparently the entire class failed this mock and when my daughter became distressed along with another pupil her teacher told them all to stop complaining that;

"This is not America, F does not mean fail and you should be satisfied with what you've got"

Needless to say I have contacted the school to make an appointment to discuss this poor attitude and to find out why my DD got this mark, why she has actually dropped a set since she has been in this school and why, despite repeated requests for more support she is not getting it.

AIBU? x

[MrsKoala]

Altho anything below a C may be considered an achievement to those who struggle with subjects, sadly ime it is not really recognised in real world applications/jobs. I have worked in recruitment for universities and the private sector. I also have worked as and adviser to students and graduates applying for jobs and we would never advise to put anything below a C on your cv. Also i have never seen a position or subject where anything less than a C in Maths or English would be accepted.

I think students need to be aware of this as i have had many teary conversations with applicants telling me proudly they have a D in something and that it isn't a 'fail' so should be accepted. Sadly in the job sphere a D is a fail or all intents ad purposes.

I got an F in Maths at school but later re-took it at evening school. The different environment/teaching must have worked better for me, because it clicked and i got a B.

[whois]

harley has a point if you have your sight set on an academic career. Anything below a C is going limit yor options substantially! But it's not 'crap' if you're not very bright and aren't looking to go onto higher education.

Although you could argue that many 'manual' professions require strong practical maths skills eg VAT %, working out quantities of materials, quotes, understanding tax if self employed etc.

[echt]

Perhaps all this who think F is crap would applaud the aspirational speaker who came to my last UK school and said:

If you get F it's a Fail
If you get E you haven't made the Effort
If you your at D, you Don't care enough
If you get C you're average and is that good enough?

This was school with exceptional levels of social deprivation, high levels of special needs. The school also had many students of exceptional intelligence and ability who were also socially deprived, etc,etc, et fucking c.

No-one has yet entertained the idea that the OP's DD might have ambitions beyond her scope. This may not be the case, but hey, right now it's all down to shit teaching.

[echt]

There's a point to be made about the relevance of the C grade.

When last teaching in the UK, unis always wanted to know when the C or above was gained. They didn't give a shiny shit about grades gained after 16, as it messed up their graphs for degree level attainment.

What this means is that for those aiming for C and above, they have to get it sorted, for the most part, at Year 10 at the latest. They need to get their grades at the age expected, GCSEs at 16, As at 18.

There will always be exceptions, but that's what they are, exceptions.

[MrsKoala]

Every job i have ever recruited for asks for a C minimum as a 'basic' level. They are often very low paid entry jobs such as receptionist. All manual apprenticeships i have recruited for ask for it too. In fact i have recruited for 13k data entry jobs which specify a degree. It's sad, but a lot of employers expect it now as so many people have it. Apart from shelf stacking i can't think of a job i have prepared students for/recruited to which don't require it.

I know it's hard if you/your children aren't able to achieve it, but anything less than a C just isn't worth the paper it's written on.

[whois]

No-one has yet entertained the idea that the OP's DD might have ambitions beyond her scope. This may not be the case, but hey, right now it's all down to shit teaching

Nah, OPs daughter might not be cut out for higher education. Pretty shocked OP has let her daughter languish in the bottom set if she truly belies daughter can attain higher.

[JugglingFromHereToThere]

Well, having just read your OP MrsB the thought that just popped into my head was ...

No F is not a Fail, it is Fair warning though !

As in, hopefully you and DD have time to turn that into a very useful C before next year

Good luck, to you both x

[MrsKoala]

When i was at school it was apparent there were subjects i was good at or terrible at. I decided to triage my subjects. Rather than pour lots of effort into maths to go from a U to an e (which would have taken loads of effort and time) i decided to spend that time on subjects i was borderline or even good at. Therefore, As and Bs in 5 subjects look better on a cv than 4 Cs and 4 Ds. (the D's will just be discounted anyway).

I think the 'everything is a pass' and 'if you try and try you will succeed' attitude in education is misleading and not representative of the 'real world'. Sometimes no matter how hard you try, you are never going to be good at a subject, and teachers should be more about this. (and i speak as an ex teacher who had to lie to children about their prospects)

[BeckAndCall]

MrsKoala, I'm surprised you could be a teacher without a C in maths - times, they are a changing

[mouldyironingboard]

Unfortunately anything less than a C grade doesn't count towards university entrance which is what matters in this case.

I believe that GCSE maths is about understanding the concepts and being able to apply them. This can be achieved by loads of practise along with good teaching and hard work.

Op, if your daughter works well with this tutor, I suggest that you keep tutoring her right up to the maths exam next year.

I agree that you need to have a word with the H of D and H of Y because a whole class getting F grades is poor, even in a bottom set. You'd expect a few to be getting E grades and hopefully at least one getting a D or close to a D. It sounds like the teacher doesn't have much ambition for her students, which is unacceptable.

[BigBlockSingsong]

Would you have rather they tore down her self esteem and made her feel stupid?

I remember being made to feel awful when I got poor grades.
As I recall only a U, unmarkable is the only fail.

[MrsKoala]

Beckandcall - If you read my earlier post i re-took it at evening school/adult education and got a b.

[flyingspaghettimonster]

I got a 'd' for information technology at gcse. I have never used it on job applications or university apps... O always considered it a fail - so I imagine everyone considers 'f' a fail. The good thing is, they always grade you lower on mocks in hopes that you get your act together and reply. An 'f' to me would indicate either a kid who really cannot use basic maths, o a child that has been lacking at revision. You know which category she falls into... You can use tutor to improve the grade whichever she is, and maybe an incentive to work towards for if she raises the grade significantly. Hope it goes well... If the grade upset her, it is a good sign she will work harder...

[MrsKoala]

No, BigBlock. But i don't see not being very good at something as being stupid. We aren't all good at everything and that is normal. Why can't we honestly say, this subject is not for you? We have to continue this, quite frankly cruel, forcing people to do things they are never going to succeed in because if we all put our minds to it we can search for the hero inside ourselves guff. It isn't true. I have seen hundreds of pupil self esteem be trashed because they were forced to continually fail at something. I think that is much worse to self esteem than a frank, honest, 'y isn't your subject lovey, but you are good at x'.

I'm utterly shit at lots of things, i am also brilliant at others. My self esteem is not so fragile that it depends on being falsely inflated so that when you get in the 'real world' and someone points out a failing i am not crying in the loos.

Having worked in university, one of the biggest problems academics have is criticising a students work. Because they are just not equipped to deal with it anymore. We are doing them all a disservice.

[noblegiraffe]

Tiggy, a child that is struggling in maths is not going to be helped by giving up a couple of subjects. Children who give up subjects to get more time to concentrate on the others get put in the back of a classroom and get on with it themselves.

A child struggling with maths simply can't get on with it themselves, they need a teacher to help with explanations. If there are no teachers available (they are all teaching!), the extra time is useless.

[Twitterqueen]

Sorry, but F is definitely perceived as a fail in the world outside of education and you are right to be concerned.

[MomOfTomStubby]

OP - if your local state/private selective school were to be banned then the influx of the 10% will be of great benefit to your DD.

I'm still waiting for people in the other thread to explain to me how that works but I will keep you updated.

[BigBlockSingsong]

what I meant was in my day teachers really tore you down in that sense,

maybe the teacher was just trying to be nice.

[Floggingmolly]

It's as near to a fail as dammit. You need to intervene now.

[MrsKoala]

i agree tiggy, i think it's terrible. i worked finding internships (free labour) for a uni and you'd be horrified at what tasks/roles managers demanded a degree for. Totally unnecessary. My DH is very good at his job but dyslexic and awful at maths. if he just left school now he wouldn't stand a chance. it's so depressing for young people. (same as now the government saying childcare providers should be MORE qualified - WHY?!)

[TheBigJessie]

I took most of my GCSEs surrounded by people who were retaking. It was good for me. Under other circumstances, I would probably have spent 11 years being smug in top sets for everything, sticking my nose up at "people with no work ethic" or similar.

As it was, I could see that I was lucky. Things come less or more easily to different people. An F is a pass. Admittedly, it is not a good pass... If it's a fail, I'm not certain it is the pupil's failure. I think our whole society has failed, that so many children leave school without basic skills. Not just schools!

When it comes right down to it, I think the vast majority of people are capable of at least a C at Maths. More than the 40-60% that do now.

However, for that to happen, we need a turn-around in social attitudes to maths, we need children to have the time to grasp the lower levels, before being rushed onto the next topic (and no that does NOT mean chanting times tables), we need maths educational policies drawn up by mathematicians and maths teachers, and pupils also need a good level of literacy so they can read the questions! I would also say that there is no point in a year 11 getting 14 to 18 grade Ds. Some gifted people get 14 A*s. Some people don't. If many pupils had their subjects severely trimmed, and were timetabled for actual teaching of a smaller group of subjects, they would leave with grades that were worth something, and that actually meant they were prepared for A-levels. Whether they went on to FE or HE, they would be able and feel able to help their own children with their homework in the next twenty years, as opposed to a lasting sense of inferiority due to said grade D's. And parental support is very important. I don't know whether my children will be natural mathematicians or not, but whatever their innate POTENTIAL, they will have more of a chance of reaching it than many other children, due to their home environment.

But for all I know, maybe I'd be a worse education secretary than Gove. But at least I know I'd take professional advice, if I were.

[MrsKoala]

I know Tiggy, I try to advise employers they don't need a grad, but they wont have it. One position was a data entry clerk. All they had to do was typ information into a data base and do filing, the job was paying 13k yet they INSISTED on a business graduate...in Southwark! The sad thing is, they were inundated with applicants. Which shows the level of desperation.