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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

"F is not a fail"

136 replies

MrsBombastic · 14/05/2013 21:53

This is what my DD's maths teacher told her class yesterday.

DD is 15, she is not gifted in the maths department but even she (and I) was shocked and frankly devastated that she got an F in her mock GCSE.

She was not the only one, apparently the entire class failed this mock and when my daughter became distressed along with another pupil her teacher told them all to stop complaining that;

"This is not America, F does not mean fail and you should be satisfied with what you've got"

Needless to say I have contacted the school to make an appointment to discuss this poor attitude and to find out why my DD got this mark, why she has actually dropped a set since she has been in this school and why, despite repeated requests for more support she is not getting it.

AIBU? x

OP posts:
noblegiraffe · 15/05/2013 09:05

The problem with getting from an F to a C in maths is that it isn't like other subjects where to go up a grade you just have to improve what you can already do (e.g. a few tweaks to an English essay could bump you up a grade), in maths you have to master new topics.
A D grade student in maths wanting a C would have to learn Pythagoras, expanding double brackets, plotting quadratics, area and circumference of a circle and so on. An F grade student wanting a C would have to learn that too, but would also need to learn the D grade topics, and the E ones.

In a class of students aiming for an F, there is no point in teaching Pythagoras or circles if they are still struggling to master more basic topics. You can't teach quadratics if they don't get algebra substitution or squaring.

It's a lot of work between an F and a C. Getting there in a bottom set in one year without substantial outside work and help just isn't going to happen.

noblegiraffe · 15/05/2013 09:08

Tiggy, our bottom set is usually 1/25 of a year group (about 10 students from 240), not a quarter or third! I doubt many schools are simply writing off that many students.

Cherrypi · 15/05/2013 09:11

F grade means she hasn't mastered any additional maths since primary school. It is unlikely she will go up by more than two grades in a year if she tried her hardest in the mock. It might be worth researching alternative careers.

kilmuir · 15/05/2013 09:15

not a fail, but not far off!

KellyElly · 15/05/2013 09:16

When I was at school a U was a fail, but pretty much anything under a C is classed as not passing in the world of employment and further education.

noblegiraffe · 15/05/2013 09:16

An F is roughly equivalent to a Level 4. A C is roughly equivalent to a level 7. If that helps anyone understand the problem with getting an F grade student to a C in a year, it would be trying to get a pupil from a level 4 to a level 7.

tiggytape · 15/05/2013 09:50

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BeachComeRainOrShine · 15/05/2013 10:01

Admittedly it was 20 years ago that I did my maths GCSE but at the end of year 10 the whole class's results were appalling, I got 23% and that was the highest. It seems like some on this thread don't want to hear it but it was the teachers fault, she was awful but married to the deputy head so nothing was ever done about it.

My parents got me a tutor and I got an A but we lived in a pretty deprived area and not many could afford the luxury of a tutor, the majority of the class got less than a C grade and were told they had "failed". That woman's crap teaching affected an awful lot of children's futures. The time to take action is definitely at the end of year 10 otherwise it becomes very, very difficult to catch up.

bigkidsdidit · 15/05/2013 10:18

it may as well be a fail.

I would become a tiger mother for this Grin - maths is too important.

talk to the HOD, push for her to go on revision sessions at the school. Insist she is entered fior the higher paper. Get a tutor, then sit down with her and talk to her about her ambitions in life. Make sure she knows that she needs to work hard, at school and with the tutor and BBC bitesize and all those things. And she will need to work all holidays.

It's only a year - worth going all out, I think.

MomOfTomStubby · 15/05/2013 10:22

Pushing for the DD to be entered for the higher paper is a bad idea.

The DD is clearly strugging (whose fault is irrelevant at this stage). Getting her to sit the even harder paper is not the solution.

noblegiraffe · 15/05/2013 10:24

Tiggy, really can't speak for other schools but my school has a very high achieving maths department. Kids who get an F at GCSE (and getting an F in a Y10 exam is completely different, depending on what the exam actually was and how it was graded) tend to come in on a low level 3, or more likely below that. It tends to be slow progress at primary and slow progress at secondary.
As for extra support for struggling students - the main issue there is money. There's less and less of it about these days. My school used to have a special group in Y7 for students who came in at very low levels to try to help them catch up, but we lost it due to funding cuts.

noblegiraffe · 15/05/2013 10:24

Meant to add, I'd be very interested to know what the OP's DD got at KS2.

DeWe · 15/05/2013 10:33

It's very sad that so many people are talking about "Of course F is a fail". For some children gaining their F is a great achievement.

My dm taught and tutorred many people from differing abilities up to university levels. She will still reckon her greatest achievement was a child who got a G at maths. A lot of work went in both on her part and the child's part. Luckily her parents reckonised what an achievement it was for her, but hearing comments of f being a fail would have been very upsetting.

OP. Tutoring may help, but F to a C is a huge step. It depends mostly on whether your dd has been working full out, and if she's now prepared to work full out, and if the exam she's just done may have been set deliberately hard to slightly shock them into work.

Dm has tutorred up from an E to a C, it was a huge amount of work. But the big thing was the person really wanted it, so was prepared to work at it. She's had a couple of Ds going up to Bs, they were adults who had gone back to college to get it.
But she has occasionally been asked to tutor someone that very quickly it has become apparent that what they're aiming for is unrealistic. She has always spoken quietly to the parent when this is the case. But sometimes someone's dream is above their capability unfortunately.

£25 is good value though. If you go through an agency you can be paying £50+. That's why dm doesn't go through agencies generally.

HadALittleFaithBaby · 15/05/2013 10:36

OP how is she with maths in every day life? Can she manage money? Count change? I'm just wondering if she has a specific disability with maths (I.e www.bdadyslexia.org.uk/about-dyslexia/schools-colleges-and-universities/dyscalculia.html considering that she's achieving well in other subjects. Has anyone ever mentioned anything like that?

tiggytape · 15/05/2013 10:41

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

noblegiraffe · 15/05/2013 11:05

Tiggy, the maths group going really was a last resort, other departments suffered much worse - maths was lucky to only lose one teacher, the school lost quite a few teachers and TAs. The remaining maths teachers are maxed out on their timetable, TAs are so overworked that even when they are timetabled for maths lessons they can't make it all the time. There's no money and no people and no time for extra sessions.

(Thank the Tories btw, it was their budget cuts directly responsible for kids in my school receiving a shittier education).

echt · 15/05/2013 11:25

tiggy no matter what the often inflated exam requirements of post-secondary courses are, it doesn't mean everyone can achieve them.

You say getting those through to C who have the vaguest hope is vital. That would be D grades at Year 11, high Es at the start of year 10. Significant leaps, and in the case of maths, content not just skills.

I'd be a bit Shock at the idea of a potential teacher needing intensive support and dropping other courses to get the basic quals to teach at Year 11.

Tingalingle · 15/05/2013 11:26

Different situation (and not, honest, a stealth boast) but DS was in a crap maths set two years back and predicted borderline C/D.

He spent a whole Easter working on maths with DH, bitesize, and his (maths genius) godmother. He got an A*, much to his teacher's astonishment, and is doing it for A-level.

So going up three grades is not actually impossible for a bright, badly taught child. A good tutor could do wonders.

Oh, and she can get a C on the Foundation paper. No need to do the Higher unless it's looking within her reach.

TheBigJessie · 15/05/2013 11:32

For some people, getting anything in between G-D is an achievement. Whether that's because of innate issues, or just circumstances is debatable, but that is the way it is.

However... In the days when maths was triple-tiered, I went from grade E-B (highest grade on the intermediate tier) in four-five months. I had previously been home-educated, and my mother also felt that "maths is useless in daily life". She was bad at maths, and assumed I would be, too.

So, it is possible to do GCSE Maths quite quickly for some people. But... In the interests of full disclosure, I was diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome a few years later, and I am innately naturally better at maths than average. Not full Aspie genius level, but definitely better than average. All I needed was to be allowed to be interested in it, access to a teacher and textbooks.

Are your daughter's problems with maths to do with maths itself, or to do with her mental attitudes towards it? Does she have a firm grasp of foundation principles?

Tingalingle · 15/05/2013 11:39

Ah, DS also has Asperger's -- maybe that helps?

whois · 15/05/2013 11:41

For some people, getting anything in between G-D is an achievement. Whether that's because of innate issues, or just circumstances is debatable, but that is the way it is

Yes, but not if you want to be a teacher!

Getting an F is pretty fucking shit in any subject if you are averagely intelligent or above.

OP, you need to get your DD some serious help. If you think she has just 'missed' a few topics and had bad teaching or something then get her a private tutor and enrol on revision courses ASAP. Work with her at home.

gazzalw · 15/05/2013 11:48

sorry I would say an F is a fail..... I don't count any of my O Levels below a C Grade in my list of 'passes' - it's faux naive to say otherwise.

TheBigJessie · 15/05/2013 11:49

I think that badly taught/or mental attitudes of "I can't do maths" can be corrected. But there is a wonderful word- "depends"! You don't need AS to go up several grades, but if your brain does have a strong side of "amateur logician/pedant" thanks to AS, it helps! (Some people have AS and don't get the maths upgrade, poor things. Grin )

But, the OP's daughter could be any of the various types of people who don't manage the holy grail of the C first time.

harleyd · 15/05/2013 11:50

anything below a c is crap as far as im concerned

TheBigJessie · 15/05/2013 11:54

harley Snobbish.

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