to worry about people being told to cut out dairy

[noblegiraffe]

I've noticed on here recently (or maybe I've only just noticed?) that if a mother posts about a fussy baby and she's breastfeeding, it is quite common for someone to suggest the mother try cutting dairy from her diet.

Now I'd have thought that cutting out dairy should be something done carefully and with dietary advice on how to compensate for it.

If you're cutting out dairy, that means you have to cut out nice things like cheese, milk in your cereal/tea, and if you're doing it thoroughly, things like chocolate that contain milk products. This sounds tedious and not very pleasant. It may even convince a mother to give up breastfeeding.

So I would have thought that cutting out dairy isn't something that should be taken lightly.

Also, babies are quite often fussy, and they quite often grow out of it without any intervention. A mother who has cut out dairy may attribute the improvement to her restricted diet and continue on it for months despite it being completely unnecessary and making no difference at all.

It's different to when people make other suggestions on here like 'it might be reflux' because people will need to see their GP before getting a prescription, and tips like propping up the cot are harmless even if it's not reflux. People can go ahead and cut out dairy without any health professional giving it the once-over.

So, AIBU to worry about this advice being bandied about? Or do people not attempt dietary restrictions on the say so of an Internet forum and I'm worrying about nothing?

These are not the desperate parents who have been battling for months with a seriously unhappy baby that you think are being advised at long last the solution to all their troubles.

Actually when ds was 3 months old and was being unhappy and crying, I WAS desperate. That combined with other issues at birth and just after birth send me in desperation that I couldn't look after my child properly.
I don't think that you can judge from a few posts on the internet if a woman with a 3months old IS being desperate or not.
If the woman asking for advice IS being desperate, she will try (or will look at it and will never muster the courage to do it anyway...).

Your attitude though is the reason why I never mentioned that ds was allergic to cows milk, that goats milk was OK etc... Because I knew I would have so many people telling me that it was just bogus diagnosis, that he actually wasn't allergic to milk (or wasn't intolerant) etc etc.

But the issue is much wider isn't it. Because if we go by the 'Oh babies change quickly, in 2 weeks time it will be gone' or 'Oh yes there was change but it can't be the milk, it's just coincidence', then it means that people will reject what could be a very simple and easy way to help their baby. Granted it's not life threatening. But you shouldn't minimize the effect that having an unhappy baby can have on some women (PND anyone?) and thereby the effect it has on the babies. If there is some improvement and women feel empowered to make choice re the health of their baby and look after them (by looking for answers instead of just listening to what relatives are telling them), then it's all good. Regardless of whether removing milk has been the reason of the improvement or not.

Btw,I personally would NOT come anywhere near soya milk, let alone giving it a baby. But seeing that this is something widely available in any supermarket, I would suggest that a lot of people are already dairy free anyway....

And yes TeWi, 4 years of diarrhoea is an issue for a 4yo. :( for your dd.

I found it hard not to beat myself up that I had been listening to HCP for so long and ignoring my own judgement because it meant ds was unwell for longer than it needed.

YABVU I do not understand why dairy lovers are so desperate to make everyone eat dairy.

Yes. I do feel really guilty. She is still quite nervous about getting to the toilet on time, and I know that's partly the stress of having potty trained with the constant diarrhea not being understood iykwim.

She is much better and happier now. I'm still waiting for my dietician referral though - The waiting list is huge here!

I won't say YABU because it is your opinion and you don't harm me with your opinion. I cut out dairy apartf from grass-fed butter a while ago and I wish I would have done it much earlier. Not only my skin has improved but also I feel much better in general. I used to consume a lot of dairy products. Humans weren't mean to consume dairy, the same with wheat and most of the carbs but still we are being told that carbs are essential in your diet. Not true, do some research and you never want to eat any grains especially wheat again.

sashh any one who is not European or of European descent doesn't eat dairy? That's not strictly true, is it. Although there are indeed great swathes of humanity for whom milk consumption doesn't feature, it is a fallacy that it is only Europeans and their descendants for whom it does.

Obviously in many areas the bulk of that milk will be from animals other than cows, but certainly not all.

I really struggled with DS (dc3). Screaming ALL the time, especially after feeding. Green, vinegar-smelling poos, sleeping only for 15 minutes at a time. Day and night.

I was advised by a breast feeding counsellor to cut dairy from my diet. Everything- not even foods with a tiny amount in the small print.

The problem for me wasn't the calcium, I know what I should be eating to make up the deficit, but losing vast amounts of weight, feeling tired, fed-up and hungry all the time. I am naturally very slim, and eating a lot of other foods didn't seem to help.

Not to mention what a pain in the arse it is.

When this showed no improvement I was told to then cut out all gluten. Cue more weight loss, hunger and frustration.

This went on until at 16 weeks I just thought fuck it- if there's something I'm eating causing all of this misery for ds and I, then I'm going to just stop BF and start FF.

So I did.

Turns out DS had severe silent reflux. Gaviscon at every feed, ranitidine 3 x a day and omeprazole 2 x a day was what was needed to control it.

So op yanbu, advice like this can absolutely discourage mothers from BFing.

What discouraged me from BF my second child (I stopped at around 6 weeks) was that his incessant screaming, writhing, wriggling, and complete lack of sleep contributed to PND so severe that I was nearly hospitalised. Had I followed the Lactation Consultant's initial suggestion to cut out milk, I may well not have suffered that fate. As it was I stopped feeding and thereafter followed a very very long and distressing process of looking for a hydrolysate he would actually take.

My case was different to mrslion in that reflux meds were the first thing tried - omeprazole at 2 weeks of age - but they didn't work on their own.

MrsLion My son suffers from silent reflux which is caused by dairy, we tried him on formula once as everyone said it would solve everything. Worse night of my life, well one of them...

DD probably should not have been breastfed at all, in retrospect. All bm contains lactose regardless of what the mother eats.

However, her intolerance isn't severe enough to cause failure-to-thrive, which is probably why it wasn't picked up at birth and why lactose intolerance was not suggested later.

noble just wanted to say YANBU and that I can't believe how many people on here are apparently too scientifically illiterate to understand your rationale.

I saw 2 out of 6 of my antenatal posse get sucked into the 'well it can't hurt and it might help' eliminating dairy cycle. Both ended up having no dairy for 6 months (during which time they constantly bitched about what an imposition it was, the expense, the inconvenience etc etc) and neither child did or has shown any actual evidence of dairy allergy or intolerance at any point. The are all happy cheese eaters...

What a fantastic waste of effort.

Of course eliminating dairy isn't going to work for every issue every baby has.

However for those of us for whom it did make a difference, we very often weren't helped by medical professionals. We either figured things out for ourselves or were helped by other parents. And that makes us want to share our experience when we see other parents struggling with a sick baby with symptoms that remind us of our own experience.

Dairy intolerance/allergy was little known about when I had my first child 9 years ago, hopefully things are better now and doctors and health visitors don't miss cases as much as they used to. Reflux is very common in babies with CMP allergy and IMO any thorough and responsible doctor would consider that before medicating.

ICB whether it helps or not, whether the children really did show signs or not, NOTHING done with the aim of helping your baby/child do better of feel better , can be described as a fantastic waste of time. Ever!!!

where are you nuts? If you try and fix the problem having wrongly assumed it is milk intolerance, then you are wasting time doing something unproductive when you could be doing something actually useful like getting a proper diagnosis.

Time spent on kids doing things that make their life worse rather than better is definitely time wasted.

ICB, I was at my doctor's surgery every week with my DS trying to get a diagnosis. I was dismissed as being neurotic. They weren't interested. Turned out my DS was multiply allergic. Thank fuck for the advice given on here otherwise we would have spent many more miserable months.

Well presumably if they have reached the point where that's the next step to try then they aren't getting anywhere with GPS. And no it won't hurt them or their baby. If they left it six sodding months with no improvements after removing dairy then that's down to stupidity, not down to wasting time thinking that dietary change was the answer. That's the point, you try if you don't see results then u stop or try something else. You don't leave it six months and do nothing else because you stopped the milk.

Do you think it's quicker to get a diagnosis of reflux than spending a week or two trying milk alternatives???

Try telling that to mums of babies who ended up on ivs because its all apparently normal.

Mrslion, my experience was the exact opposite to yours. All the doctor could come up with was reflux and reflux medication as a solution. I'm really really surprised that wasn't offered to you as a first port of call.

I bloody well wish I had lost weight on a dairy free diet!

We dont need to eat dairy, its just that it is an easily available source of Calcium, many countries and cultures happily NOT eat dairy. It can be compensated for, though I do admitI prefer a nice bit of cheese to the alternatives.

Caffeine, you are completely missing the point if you think they carried on for six months with no improvements. I bet they weren't stupid and did see improvements. Just as I did with my DD's blood in her nappy. The only difference was that I didn't actually eliminate dairy from my diet and therefore didn't misattribute the improvement to a dairy intolerance.

Lots of things with babies simply get better with time.

Yeah lots of things to get better in time. But you know what, when your baby is miserable , no ones sleeping , no ones listening and your baby is struggling day in day out, you don't say to yourself I won't try anything now cos it might or might not make things slightly harder in a few months time. You think- well they have suffered enough anything a worth a shot and I can re introduce later on.

I think I've said a billion times on this thread that a careful analysis of a myriad of symptoms that point to CMPI is fine. Giving it a bash to try to clear nappy rash, not so much. Suggesting it to a mother who simply needs to be told that cluster feeding and fussy evenings are normal, unacceptable.

Well noble I'm happy for you that your wait and see approach paid off. As I am sure that for others it did too.

As I stated before, even if that advice was irrelevant to the op , if even one person saw it and it gave them the idea and it worked for them then why is it a bad thing that someone put it? If there's one less baby crying in pain right now as a result then that's a good thing!!!

And in the mean time while you wait for babies to show all the symptoms every time, others will continue to spot first potential
Signs in the hope that no one else has to go through what they did.

And you are just as free to post your suggestions.

The ops will read and make up their own minds.

Why would you want to post advice that was irrelevant to the OP? Why on earth would that be a good idea? I try to post good advice and help the person asking for it, not post random other advice for the benefit of someone with a different issue who might just happen to be reading.

The point is surely the ratio of good to bad outcomes.

Someone proclaims: Try elliminating dairy

100 people on the thread read it and try it.

Chances are that no one on the thread actually has a DC with a dairy problem (if the numbers are correct at 1 in 500).

That leaves 100 mothers putting in extra effort (and it IS extra effort if you aren't used to it - and a massive extra effort if your family already have multiple allergy issues). Of these maybe 50% improve and 50% don't (should be random given it isn't working - but actually babies generally improve with time so the actual ratio will be much higher than this), so the improvers incorrectly assume the dairy is responsible and decide to keep it up for 6 months.

So that's 50 odd mums wasting 6 months of their effort on a treatment that isn't working when they could be spending that same effort on playing with their DC, getting a real diagnosis for the problem, redecorating the house...well anything that actually has a point.

So no I don't think that it is worth it. Even if we are super generous and just one baby on the thread is actually helped, then is that really worth 25 woman years of extra effort at meal times. cooking twice for each meal etc?

If instead they went to the GP and got an actual diagnosis then they could get better without 50 strangers suffering for it...

Don't forget that with the extra effort comes extra expense and possible nutritional deficiency.