to worry about people being told to cut out dairy

[noblegiraffe]

I've noticed on here recently (or maybe I've only just noticed?) that if a mother posts about a fussy baby and she's breastfeeding, it is quite common for someone to suggest the mother try cutting dairy from her diet.

Now I'd have thought that cutting out dairy should be something done carefully and with dietary advice on how to compensate for it.

If you're cutting out dairy, that means you have to cut out nice things like cheese, milk in your cereal/tea, and if you're doing it thoroughly, things like chocolate that contain milk products. This sounds tedious and not very pleasant. It may even convince a mother to give up breastfeeding.

So I would have thought that cutting out dairy isn't something that should be taken lightly.

Also, babies are quite often fussy, and they quite often grow out of it without any intervention. A mother who has cut out dairy may attribute the improvement to her restricted diet and continue on it for months despite it being completely unnecessary and making no difference at all.

It's different to when people make other suggestions on here like 'it might be reflux' because people will need to see their GP before getting a prescription, and tips like propping up the cot are harmless even if it's not reflux. People can go ahead and cut out dairy without any health professional giving it the once-over.

So, AIBU to worry about this advice being bandied about? Or do people not attempt dietary restrictions on the say so of an Internet forum and I'm worrying about nothing?

[TeWiSavesTheDay]

That's the thing on MN though it's easy to assume everyone has a similar background to you - I do which is why I always consider that those asking advice might not be white British and that what is rare for British babies might not be for them.

[ICBINEG]

rag once again I might be being misled by Dnephs experience. He has had the skin prick test for EVERYTHING.

Although most of the pricks were rendered unreadable due to the massive blotch covering most of his arm caused by the milk test.

[Cloverer]

Lactose intolerance in babies is very rare/serious in any country though.

[noblegiraffe]

Caffeine, your baby refusing a bottle suggests that she was fed formula?

[Wheresmycaffeinedrip]

And far to many things are ignored or misdiagnosed cos statistics say its "unlikely" people have died as a result. Fortunately many things aren't serious but discounting possibilities because of statistics can be dangerous.

[Wheresmycaffeinedrip]

Yes she was bottle fed. Had she been breasted id have cut out dairy straight away and seen an improvement. I don't regret bottle feeding as that was what was right for us. In her case given I don't eat alot of dairy anyway she may well have done much better pretty quickly. I still have experience though in just how hard getting people to listen can be and the lack of knowledge and help available would have been just the sane either way. And I tried three other formulas so no it wasn't a reaction to formula! Once on the right stuff she thrived.

[TeWiSavesTheDay]

Cloverer only if it causes failure to thrive - this was the case with my father. And there is Jo pecking way my grandmother would have been grinding soya beans to make her own formula to Drs recipe if he hadn't been very seriously affected.

DDs is not as bad as that, but it was bad, and she did lose weight at times.

[noblegiraffe]

Caffeine, don't you see that it's a completely different kettle of fish that your DD was formula fed? No one would have been advising you to cut dairy from your diet, but to change to a dairy free milk.

If you had been ebfing, it would have been less likely that your DD would have experienced noticeable symptoms because it is rare for a baby to be so sensitive to dairy that the tiny amounts of the protein in breastmilk (compared to the comparatively huge amounts in formula) would have caused a reaction.

If a formula fed baby is showing vague signs of CMPI, it is not so silly to suggest CMPI because the baby is drinking cows milk based formula. Ebf babies aren't.

[MrsMook]

DS1 (2yrs) has CMP allergy. He was 99% BFed. He had his first reaction at 25wks to a baby porridge- he came out in hives, rubbed iit all over his face and swelled up to the point that he couldn't open his eyes within 10 mins. He was mid-clothes change and I picked him up half dressed and dashed to the Drs a couple of minutes away. He had hives with various food stuffs some obviously containing dairy, others more obscure. He also reacted to egg. It was the 3rd Drs appointment following spilling cows milk on his chest when he was 10/11mths old that we were referred to the hospital and told to cut out all dairy and egg. Within 3 days I had a baby that would sleep through the night rather than having up to 3 (normally one or two BFs) a night. So the process of being formally instructed to remove dairy was 6 months for a baby with clear allergic symptoms. I continued BFing for another 6 weeks or so without changing my diet as he was only on feeds in the night. On changing his diet he became sickly, his nappies became foul and he had terrible screaming trapped wind- we saw the dietician who said classic soya intolerence, so that was withdrawn with a rapid effect.

I don't know whether dairy in my diet affected him or not- prior to weaning, he'd already got excema. He'd been a good sleeper until the growth spurt at 16 weeks then suddenly needed feeds every two hours (had been 3 since birth). The excema could have been hayfever or could have been dairy from my milk. Hindsight is wonderful. I can't experiment with pollen, but I can with my diet.

DS2 is 4 weeks old and BFed, and if he does show allergic type symptoms then I am prepared to adjust my diet to see if it helps.

I've shared my experience as above on another forum, and it's helped others investigate their DC's allergies/ intolerences. If nothing else just seeing that the official route is drawn out and requires persistance even when there is a clear problem. People are iintelligent enough to decide how relevant my experience is to them and draw their own conclusions. In the world of seeking medical advice for ambiguous symptoms, a mother temporaily adjusting her diet and using appropriate substitutes is low risk.

DS1 is a very healthy, hardy active toddler- if you ignore the permanently snotty hayfever nose from April to August. He's theoreticly low risk for allergy, other than mild hayfever/ occasional eczema, family history is pretty much clear of allergies, and is of European origin. For a child with food allergies, we've had a fairly simple time. We are currently on a milk test, and he seems to be accepting small amounts of yoghurt.

[Wheresmycaffeinedrip]

Lets face it, if a ff baby presenting with a whole range of symptoms leaves with a "normal" or "colic" diagnosis from several drs what hope does a breast feeding mum have when statistics are apparently even rarer.

I have nothing but sympathy for these mums and understand completely why they will try anything and everything. However the baby is fed its bloody awful to watch.

[Ragusa]

Of course cutting out milk is not the best place to start with a fussy baby. Where there are other symptoms of a possible milk intolerance I hardly think it's the worst thing in the world to suggest,as one thing to be considered among many, especially given the astounding lack of awareness of CMPI/A among HCPs.

I think the real scandal is not mothers being proffered advice over the internet, I think it's them not been offered advice by HCPs, on feeding issues in general and on CMPI/A in particular. To me this is a far more concerning issue.

[noblegiraffe]

Caffeine, projecting your experience of a dairy intolerant baby being fed a cows milk based formula onto a fussy baby who is being fed non-cows-milk breastmilk is pretty unhelpful. Don't you see that the two situations are completely different?

[Wheresmycaffeinedrip]

Vague symptoms? I don't think you get any of it at all. You said your son grew out of it. That implies that you actually don't know if he was reacting to something in your diet or not. Babies grow out of cmpi sometimes. Can be quick, can take years. But you don't actually know for sure if it wouldn't have helped do you?

And there was nothing vague about my dd's symptoms. They were pretty full on. Reduced lactose didn't help either neither did infacol or coleif so she may or may not have had a problem with lactose too ill never know about that one.

Maybe she would have been ok on breast milk but I suspect that she would have exhibited some symptoms still as she would react to even small traces of milk.

[TeWiSavesTheDay]

One thing re: fussy babies, I'm never on those threads offering advice, because personally if you'll excuse all the vomit, DD was not fussy - she was very, very placid and slept a lot.

[noblegiraffe]

Caffeine, My DS grew out of being sick because the muscle between his stomach and oesophagus got stronger. It was not CMPI, it was him being a baby.

And I am not talking about babies with pretty full on CMPI symptoms being advised to cut out dairy. I said 'fussy baby' in my OP, not endlessly screaming baby refusing feeds with foul nappies throwing up like in the Exorcist, or whatever you have in mind.

[Wheresmycaffeinedrip]

In all honesty I think your getting worked up about the wrong thing noble

The problem isn't with kind people offering advice on what helped them. The problem is that (no matter how baby is fed) it doesn't matter if you have one two or ten symptoms, getting people to listen is extremely hard. The only people you have access to are GPS. Who know very little.
The problem is everything is normalised. Even in severe cases. No one seems willing to believe that dairy could ever be a problem. My advice to these people on these threads is not immediately cut out dairy but to perhaps start a food diary. That would allow people to at least see if there is a pattern or not. There are foods and medications that can alter the taste of BM for example.

I don't think suggesting something to someone is a problem. That person has a choice whether they want to or not. With intolerances it is literally a case of try it and see. That is literally all you can do. If dairy is the case you would see an improvement after a couple of weeks. An improvement though not a full blown elimination of symptoms as it does take a few weeks to leave system completely.

I don't believe, unless their diet is already poor that in the short time it would take to find out , that women would become deficient in anything. If it dies appear to help then yes these woman need to be a bit sensible about it and eat properly so that they may continue. It's milk it's easy enough to get round.

I also think that the lack of support knowledge and help leads women to breast feed far longer than they wanted to to their own detriment and still with less than happy children but its better than kids on cows milk.

I don't think it's fair to accuse people offering advice of causing women to become ill or make their lives difficult. We didn't do that. The non existent belief and support did that.

[Beachcomber]

Wheresmycaffeinedrip, I agree.

HCPs missing CMP issues in children is a MUCH bigger issue than mums trying to help each other by sharing their experiences.

Noblegiraffe if your baby passed blood for months I really hope the medical profession gave you a very solid explanation for why .

I am very at 'he just grew out of it' type explanations for any type of serious illness/inflammation/bleeding/etc.

I'm glad your little one got better but you cannot say with any certaintly that a change in diet would not have made a difference. Even if your child is not actually intolerant/allergic to CMP, they are proteins which are hard to digest and which can irritate an already inflamed gut whatever the reason for the inflammation.

[noblegiraffe]

My advice to these people on these threads is not immediately cut out dairy but to perhaps start a food diary

Er, then I'm not talking about you in the OP then am I? I'm talking about people who do simply suggest cutting out dairy, and for problems that really don't seem to warrant it.

[Wheresmycaffeinedrip]

Many intolerances go undiagnosed for months even years. A child can have permanent damage as a result. To save that, it's worth six weeks of anyone's time to find out. That's less time than a referral takes to come through.

[noblegiraffe]

I really hope the medical profession gave you a very solid explanation for why

No, and to give a solid explanation would presumably require many unpleasant tests and interventions, so I'm personally quite happy that she grew out of it and that the doctors are happy to simply monitor the situation (I have a follow-up appointment in a few months).

My various wanderings around the internet found a suggestion that blood in stools (along with green mucousy poo and the like) can be caused by oversupply, so that's a possibility I suppose.

[Beachcomber]

Do you know why oversupply would cause a baby to pass blood? (genuine question)

I agree about not wanting to do invasive tests unless absolutely necessary for defining treatment.

I'm appalled that you weren't strongly advised to at least try your baby on a dairy (at the very least) free diet. As I say, CMPs are difficult to digest and the last thing a baby with gut issues (whatever their origin) needs is foods that pose a challenge to the gut.

[noblegiraffe]

Not sure, Beachcomber, I did find this
"Babies of mothers with oversupply frequently have bowel problems because the over production of milk causes the baby to get more foremilk (the lower fat first milk) than hind milk. Hind milk is the higher fat milk that comes later in the feeding. Because the fat in the milk helps to slow digestion, a baby who receives more foremilk than hind milk may experience very rapid digestion. This would allow some of the lactose, a milk sugar, into the bowel undigested. Once in the bowel, lactose creates irritation that often leads to gassiness and explosive, even green bowel movements. Irritation also further inhibits the bowel's ability to manage the lactose, creating a situation that often gets progressively worse. This bowel irritation sometimes becomes so severe it can cause bloody stools."


www.ivillage.com/can-baby-be-allergic-breastmilk/6-n-137038#ixzz2TMHLzuKO

Not sure how accurate that is, I know the foremilk/hindmilk idea is supposed to be outdated these days.

The other thing was that DD stopped having blood in her stools (and it was erratic, btw, not every day) when she stopped pooing several times a day and only going once a day or every other day. This could be linked to oversupply I suppose (not that I'm sure I had oversupply) or when she was doing loads of poos, the constant poos were irritating her somehow.

Actually, reading that quote above, it would make more sense to ask breastfeeding mothers of fussy babies to investigate oversupply rather than eliminating dairy as a likely culprit.

[tobiasfunke]

In our bfeeding group there was about 15 of us. 2 of the babies (mine was one) has green poo with blood for extended periods and 2 had severe excema. DS grew out of whatever was wrong with him at about 5 months ( an immature gut was the closest guess) but the other 3 were eventually diagnosed with CMP allergy. The difference between Ds and the other child with green poo was that DS continued to put on weight and the other baby didn't.
All 3 ended up in hosiptal to get treated - 2 were emergency admissions. At no point did the GP's these women saw multiple times suggest any sort of lactose intolerance. They were handed Gaviscon or emollients and told to get on with it.

They didn't seem to have any sort of problem giving up dairy and were usually talking about the fab things they cooked or found in the Vegan section. They were however very angry that such a simple change hadn't been suggested to them before and maybe if they had been on an internet forum like this and someone suggested it - it may have helped them. Their poor babies suffered for months.

A GP told me that after a stomach bug you should avoid giving your kids any dairy for a few weeks as it isn't so well tolerated until the gut is settled down. Why would it be any different for b'feeding babies?

[Beachcomber]

Thanks Noblegiraffe - I just looked it up and found similar information to you that it is a theory about too rapid digestion of oversupply of foremilk leading to undigested lactose in the bowel.

Mmmm. Sounds a bit mother blaming to me TBH (Doing Breastfeeding Wrong. Having Faulty Breasts).

Long term oversupply is rare and generally sorts itself out it the baby is allowed to feed on demand and nobody stresses the mother with routines and pumping.

[Wheresmycaffeinedrip]

So if you aren't sure that you had over supply then were you not worried about the bleeding?

The most common cause of blood in nappy is anal fissure. If the drs were suggesting there were tests they could do then I'm assuming they ruled that out?

If you were happy with the diagnosis of over supply then fair enough. Obviously u had your explanation but if you weren't happy with that, and understandably refused the tests because if the pain and discomfort, then dairy/ soy intolerance is a logical possibility wasn't it?

I mean obviously there r other possible causes that are more serious such as obstructions. But I have to say in surprised it wasn't suggested before they talk about invasive tests.