To think middle-class Guardian reading lefties, really are morally superior to their rabid Daily Mail/Telegraph reading counterparts?

[ComposHat]

Posh lefty handwringers/Champagne Socialists/The Islington mafia call them what you like, but I think they are unfairly maligned.

Because in purely self economic terms it would be more beneficial to adopt a right wing stance and advocate less taxation, cuts in stamp duty and inheritance tax, yet they take an opposing view in the interests of fairness and justice.

By contrast, Middle/upper class Tories act largely in their own interest.

Doesn't the very nature of that statement indicate left lying beliefs?

Any Tory with half an ounce of conviction in their beliefs wouldn't be found recommending ways to get the most possible out of the state.

"Any Tory with half an ounce of conviction in their beliefs wouldn't be found recommending ways to get the most possible out of the state."

Really? So tax accountants are all left wingers?

Technically, people who try to avoid tax are not taking from the state. They are just trying to give as little as they can. Theres a significant difference. And seeing as a traditional Tory believes in low taxes, then trying to avoid high taxes is completely in line with what they are supposed to believe.

SB, like you i think people are far less easy to categorise and far less polarised than OP suggests. I am an avid reader of the Times, Guardian and occasionally the Telegraph even the Mail online if desperate for gossip ; i admire Cameron but would never vote Tory; despite being an ex-public sector worker, i support the coalition's cuts.. What does that make me?! A realist

"Technically, people who try to avoid tax are not taking from the state. They are just trying to give as little as they can. Theres a significant difference. And seeing as a traditional Tory believes in low taxes, then trying to avoid high taxes is completely in line with what they are supposed to believe."

Absolutely no difference morally at all.

Of course there's a difference morally! And either way, morally want what we were talking about.

But morally, someone who is in the position of trying to minimise their tax bill is probably already paing a significant amount into the pot, and working enough to be able to do so.

Someone who is in the position of planning their working hours based around how much money they can get from the governement for doing as little as possible is probably not paying very much into the pot and is working out how to pay even less at the same time as taking more out.

If you think they are the same morally, then I would question your morals tbh.

If the left are so against tax evasion/avoidance why were the loopholes not closed while they were in power? Could it be because the government, Mr Bliar and all his cronies were busy squirrelling away their illegal gains in off-shore tax havens?

Surely not! Not those morally superior lefties

Tbh Ruby, I would argue that Blair and co were NEVER left wing....but that's a whole other debate!

Lots of things they COULD have done and didn't.

The greater the level of taxation then the bigger the state and the more the general population is infantilised.

The historical failing of the left is that they don't recognise that it is self-accomplishment not equality that makes people happy.

Also equality of achievement is impossible without bringing everyone to the bottom - need to achieve equality of opportunity, which most of the left appear to believe is unfair

I was from the bottom of the pile, I like to think I was dragged up rather than forcing everyone down to me level .

"But morally, someone who is in the position of trying to minimise their tax bill is probably already paing a significant amount into the pot, and working enough to be able to do so.

Someone who is in the position of planning their working hours based around how much money they can get from the governement for doing as little as possible is probably not paying very much into the pot and is working out how to pay even less at the same time as taking more out.

If you think they are the same morally, then I would question your morals tbh."

But why is the second person a left winger?

"Also equality of achievement is impossible without bringing everyone to the bottom - need to achieve equality of opportunity, which most of the left appear to believe is unfair"

Where on earth did you get that idea from??

YABU (if I can decode the actual statement) I buy the telegraph when they offer a free bottle of water...

YANBU :)

Why are all right wingers selfish and bigoted - Do you think it is impossible to believe that a small state and capitalism is better for everyone?

Compare and contrast life in 1977 and life in 2013, at any level of UK society and we are better off now

Not all right wingers are selfish and bigoted- who said they were?

The problem with the daily Telegraph is it's too big - about time they jumped on the bandwagon with a diddy version.

Nowadays I hardly ever read papers as there is so much online.

Err, MrsDeVere, the only person who's said "...the wc are thick..." is, err... YOU!

I completely agree with MrsDeVere. She is entirely right, and I feel ashamed that although I've noticed the attitude before, I've never been able to put it into words myself.

Jessie, working class, but knows long words.

I am not sure where I stand on the immigration argument, but limiting immigration is not necessarily selfish or bigoted. For example, the people who benefited the most from Polish plumbers were the rich who used them and the people who suffered the most were the poor, due to additional strain on housing, schools and NHS.

Before this turns into a "I'm sooooo much more working class than you" type pissing contest, I would just like to remind Mrs DeVere that she does not represent the whole of the working class, or indeed anyone but herself. She certainly does not represent my views. Although I did not vote for UKIP in my local elections, I would be intrigued to hear her views on why so many of "the proles" did ? In a predominantly working class ward, populated in the main by council tenants? Llike me.