Should I give any more thought to DD's friend's mum?

[AgentZigzag]

We've known the mum and her DD for about 10 years and I was friends with the mum for about 4/5 years (I think) before I made a deliberate decision to back the fuck off at speed distance myself from her. But now DD is 12 YO and they don't live that far away (and lives near to someone else DD sees often) she been going round on her own for a few months.

The reason I'm posting is that DD stopped over there a couple of weeks ago and said the mum had walked around in just her bra/pants for about half hour before getting dressed (not related to the bra/pants/hanging washing out thread ). DD stopped again last night along with another couple of lasses and she thought the other girls being there would mean the mum wouldn't walk about like that in front of them, but she did.

That's the bare bones, and I'm totally open to the fact there's absolutely nothing wrong with the scenario because -
-it's completely her right to dress/not dress how she pleases in her own home
-DD feeling uncomfortable could be down to her being 12, we've got no hang ups with our bodies and have been relaxed but respectful of privacy etc and have encouraged the same with DD

However, saying that, there are things, some to do with why I backed off from the mum, which I'm trying to decide whether they're significant to this or not -
-A minor thing, but basic politeness and making guests feel comfortable may sometimes involve getting dressed in a conventional sense, and in front of your 12 YO DDs friend might be one of those times, the mum does seem to have had a blurred boundaries issue with other things
-She did some things that made me in the past, like when DD stopped over at 7 YO (her friend 6 YO) the mum left them on their own in the house (which I was furious about tbh), and another incident at about the same time when all three of them ended up with no clothes on, she asked me to babysit the first time I met her and her DD 2/3 YO, talks inappropriately about her DDs dad in front of her DD/my DD, amongst other things
-If this was DDs friends dad walking about in just his shreddies I would be wondering about him possibly getting a kick from it (although I'm not suggesting this of the mum)

Knowing what I do of her, the most rational answer I can think of is that she's trying to prove a point that there's nothing wrong with peoples bodies. It's something she keeps saying to DD and trying to make DD do things she's not comfortable with, thankfully DD is able to speak up and say no.

Today DD went to get something from a cupboard when the mum was only in bra/pants, and even though there was a lot of room for her to move back, she only gave DD a tiny bit of space to squeeze past, and this does make me feel a bit uneasy, as it did DD (although a horrified cringe would be a more accurate word for DD ).

Someone else I know gets something from knowing what makes other people squirm and then doing it repeatedly 'because they can'. A bit of a power thing? Point scoring? Game Playing? I'm not sure, but it's fucking horrible and I don't like people who enjoy doing it.

Does that sound plausible?

Sorry I've gone on, but it's been bouncing around in my head for a couple of weeks and I'm not sure whether I should encourage DD to stay away or just leave them be. I like her friend and she knows us well so I'm loathe to get involved, but I wouldn't be able to forgive myself if I read it wrong and missed warning signs which might be obvious afterwards if anything more creepy were to happen.

I'm very unlucky in the people I know or it's me and not the world

I would guess you've grown up conditioned to expect people to cross boundaries - you probably don't stop such people who are prone to do such things immediately with looks, words and body language like most people do.

I'd try and stop sleep overs at the woman house - if possible probably easiest by counter suggesting your place to any sleep overs and making it more attractive than the other option.

I'd have a quiet word with your Mum saying you don't what this woman round your DD - cite inappropriate behavior - but refuse to go into details. If she doesn't listen then that a whole other set of problems.

Possible suggest to your DD when you take tooth brush over that going home with you is fine - if she is unhappy its a way out for today.

Your DD seems concern enough to mention these incidents to you - she looking to you to let her know what is normal behavior and what she should let people get away with.

Now I've seen the date on the OP - I'd hope you got things sorted .

'she looking to you to let her know what is normal behavior and what she should let people get away with.'

That's the problem Loa, that my perspective is probably quite distorted and I'm maybe over suspicious of people. I'm not sure myself what normal behaviour is.

Mum'll remember what happened before and knows I'm not keen on the woman, plus she's nosy and won't be fobbed off with a refusal to go into details

I think I'll email her, (it's safer ) I can get everything I want into it and have a measure of control. I'll try and write it in an objective way and see what she makes of it/her, she's more suspicious than I am so if she's noticed anything it will be on her mental list of 'things which don't add up' with the woman.

I've only lurked so far but my DD wouldn't be going over there. Something isn't right with this. The thing that really really stood out for me was the fact that she was wearing underwear and forcing your DD to brush past her. Not on!!

Oh OP, this is exactly the kind of problem I'm going to have as my Ds grows up!

I too am rubbish at boundaries, grew up being taught that I had no right to any boundaries and no way to enforce them or feel that there even was such a thing. The lifelong learning of over riding your gut instinct and letting people trample over them is really hard to break.

Anyway enough of the empathy! I think your dd is at an age where you have to show her how to protect her boundaries and deal with awkward situations which are too confusing and subtle to react to and feel justified.

It's a hugely valuable skill/ life lesson to give to her, & something she will need all through her life - you know how hard it is without this clear sense of boundaries (& I do too can u tell!?)

Anyway, good luck.

My dc would not be going there. Her behaviour is exhibitionist and odd.

I will tell you about something that happened in my class in primary.
The girls name was, say, Linda. Linda started new in our class in Y5. We all thought the mother was a bit odd. Making slightly sleazy comments, sex related stuff. High heals, miniskirt, low necklines. Linda had an all class birthday party in Y6. There was pop corn, soda, cake, and dad did a disco. Lindas mum suggested playing hide and seek. In the dark.

Many years later a few of us got talking. Turns out that the mum was hiding in a closet, and were feeling up the boys and made them touch her breasts. She had shushed them all and said "this will be our little secret, you are my little boyfriend now". Of course she never saw them again, end of the year, and they went to different secondaries, etc.

But the point is, they were all so ashamed and thought it was only them, they did not tell anybody about this until adult hood.

And Linda? She became sexually active the year she turned 13, started posing naked in mens mags when she was 16, having lied she was 18. Had her first baby at 17, and moved out from home then.

She would not let her mum meet her baby. Turns out Linda had also been abused, and like her classmates were too scared and ashamed to tell.

This womans behaviour is not normal. She is slowly pushing your daughters boundaries into what is normal in their home. Nudity, brushing up against each other, washing together undressed. Pissing in buckets - these are all very intimate acts! It is all thinly veiled under "we are all girls and we have seen bums before". What next?
Some might go as far as calling it grooming.

If a man was behaving like this, your instincts would be screaming! We have been accustomed to the idea of male abusers and female victims. Women can be abusers too! And if this woman is perfectly innocent, I rather stop the overnight visits than risk your daughter.

I don't have any problem enforcing boundaries and will speak up if I need to, and I would have said DD would too if it wasn't for posters on here pointing out that this woman actually made her do things she wasn't comfortable with (brushing past her/passing the loo roll to her friend).

That makes me nervous.

Because I'm not sure and will read situations through a negative lens I'm probably too prickly about my boundaries and who I think has gone over them tbh.

I don't want to infect her with that, I don't want her friend/relationships fucked up by not feeling comfortable with other people.

How can I not though when I'm who she comes to?

Oh and practically, what I mean is asking her how the weirdiness made her feel at the time, and get her in touch with her 'spidy-sense' ... And that if she's feeling like her spidy-sense tingling or if she's uncomfortable or doesn't know how to react to something that she doesn't feel is quite right or she's being pressured into.

And then talk about all the different ways she can deal with it, from making excuses, phoning/ texting u, to distancing from the person that's making her feel like that. And then explain that it's your job to protect her from people that don't seem to e behaving in a thoughtful/ respectful way to get and what you'll be doing to stop / minimize the effect this woman is having on her.

It's really really important that she knows that she can and should get out of any situation that is even slightly wrong for her, even if she can't define why. It's ok to react to a sense of 'something ain't right', or 'I don't like this'. And it's Not ok for someone to make her feel uncomfortable or coerce her to do stuff (like pee in a bucket or wash with someone else in the room etc).

But you do seem to have problems enforcing boundaries, because you are worried about being too prickly or too paranoid, so you may well under react (sorry don't mean to sound cruising, not my intention).

I think it's important to get her to listen to her own gut feel, reinforce her right to do that and give her the tools, skills, help to deal with it for later, and be the parent telling her what to do now if you need to.

When you're own senses are 'off', then it's really hard to get it right, not let people overstep them, and not react too strongly. But I think in this situation, it's more damaging for your dd to be taught to let someone over step the mark, than it is to risk judging this woman 'wrongly'.

It doesn't matter why or what she's doing, her behaviours is not quite right, it's making you and your daughter feel uncomfortable, so whatever the reason or 'real' motivation for it, it doesn't matter. No more sleep overs and more supposed visits at your house, and go from there?

It's not that don't think women can sexually abuse children Quint, (and what you've posted is horrifying) it's not even that I'm loathe to think this of someone I know (although obviously I am in a way), the problem is getting a gauge of the likely cause of her behaviour.

Posters could have come on and said they would do the same, or that she's odd but probably harmless. Posting something on here is a huge risk because it's impossible to predict which way it's going to go - which doesn't help my general confusion at how it all works

DD won't be stopping over the night there again for sure, but as tonight's shown, she's going to bump into this woman again and it's the fine tuning of 'she's not going to have contact with her' when situations come up.

It didn't even cross my mind that she'd be round there for tea, because I don't have much to do with mum I don't know how well they know each other.

But the irrefutable fact is, like you say, if this were a man I would be far less unsure how to think about it.

I'm relieved your second paragraph is roughly what I've tried to teach DD DoubleLife, basically that it's OK to break 'social conventions of politeness' if she doesn't feel comfortable and that I'll always get her/ back her up/take any flack from whoever's made her feel like that.

Being worried/knowing that I'm too prickly wouldn't stop me from stepping up to say something to someone who was taking the piss or doing something I wasn't happy with.

Because I don't have any contact with anyone (and don't want to, so I'm not needy for company and will take any old fucker) I wouldn't put up and shut up with anything that wasn't quite right.

I honestly just didn't put a sexually motivated spin on it before this thread.

Agent it sounds like you're totally on the right track in spite of a really tricky situation and context. What a really disturbing woman though, whatever her motives, just not ok, eeeugh. Hope your daughter got through her lunch ok

Agent, you don't need to " get a gauge on the likely cause of her behaviour" . It's the EFFECT of her behaviour on YOUR DAUGHTER that's worrying the posters here.

It's not your job to psychoanalyse this women and work out her motivation.its your job to protect your DD, who is being made to feel uncomfortable and do things she doesn't want to.

What do you mean by " I don't have any contact with anyone " ?

I would tell your mum that this woman makes your daughter uncomfortable and can she please not invite friends' parents round when your daughter was looking forward to just being with her friend as it changes the dynamics of the evening. I find it odd that your mum would invite your daughter's friend's mum round for tea. She's 12 not 5.
With 12 year olds often menstruating the bucket things sounds odd and controlling.
I'd stop her going round there as often, definitely no overnight stays and invite the friend round more.

Agent, I dont mean to be harsh, nor alarming, but it occurs to me that your dd will be in prime position to fall prey to people such as the friends mum because you are so distant in the whole friendship thing. I am sure this woman does all she can to encourage the friendship, and you staying out of it like this just makes your daughter all the more vulnerable. You say yourself you dont interact with other people and you dont invite children around. This means that you dont get to see the childrens behaviour for yourself, and you dont get to properly gauge the adult either.

Your daughter is looking to you for guidance. You say yourself your "radar" is off and you dont trust yourself. But you have put yourself in a position where you dont have to judge, you rely on your daughter to do this. And she is too young. It seems you both look to each other.

This situation is highly unusual. Any other child, with more involved and present parents who trust their judgement would perhaps have run a mile and ended the friendship before their children became so close.

Does this girl have any other friends? Do you know what their parents say about the situation? Does your daughter have any other friends?

Even though you feel better not interacting with people, and that interaction is not enriching, it might be worth for the sake of your daughter if you were to "get your shit together" and take a more active part in her interactions, while she maneuver through the whole friendship jungle.

I know what you're saying makes sense and agree, especially

'you don't need to " get a gauge on the likely cause of her behaviour" . It's the EFFECT of her behaviour on YOUR DAUGHTER that's worrying the posters here.'

I also agree I should be able to get the measure of people myself, which I did with this woman when I backed off before and stopped seeing her.

When DD was younger I had her friends round and made a real effort to interact with their parents, a lot of them I've known from the same playgroup I met this woman in. But I've gradually backed off from everyone in the last few years and can't even do it now for the DDs.

It's not just that I selfishly don't get anything from other people so I don't bother, I find it disturbing, distressing, it leaves me loathing myself for not being able to do it even for the people I love the most. Not having contact might leave me panicking about what I'm teaching (or not teaching) the DDs, but it's the lesser of two evils.

It does look like I've cut DD free to battle it out for herself doesn't it? She does come to me a fair bit and I try to steer her in the right direction, but I'm probably giving her all the wrong advice and fucking her up even more.

I wouldn't encourage my child to go to her house. All the way through she has shown her judgement is off - so what next?

I had a word with mum, it's only the second time the woman's been round and she invited her to eat on the spur of the moment, mum's very sociable so it's nothing out of the ordinary.

She generously described the woman as 'different', and said she won't invite her round again now I've said about it, but DD and her friend are welcome round any time.

She agreed about the woman being outspoken and had noticed she'd said a couple of things to DD that she could tell she wasn't comfortable with and so had deflected her. I asked DD about it and she'd picked up on it too.

Despite being lumbered with me as her mum, and regardless of her 12 YO lack of common sense sometimes, she has got her head screwed on I think lol

Have you said anything to this mother about your dd being uncomfortable?

Because I would gauge a certain amount by her reaction. If she is embarrassed and apologetic then I would guess it was just her culture/thinking and she hadn't thought of it as a problem. That would worry me least, but I would be watching out for any hint of her still doing it.

If she is defensive or denies it then I would be suspicious why she's doing it, whether there is a control thing or a sexual thing as others have suggested. Then my dd wouldn't be going round there again.

If she implies the problem is your dd and her attitude to nakedness etc. then I would be exceedingly irritated, but suspect she was probably a little embarrassed. And my dd wouldn't be going round there again.

If it was either the second two, I might seek advice from someone, because I would always wonder if there was more going on. Depending on situation, I might approach the child protection person from school-there should be one, and ask to speak in confidence. They shouldn't let on that you've said anything, but if they have other concerns then an independent concern might be enough to investigate.

I think people saying they'd do the same are thinking they would do the same for their own dc, not other peoples. My 12yo will happily wander into our room while we're dressing, while she's wearing just her pants. But if we have visitors then none of us would come out until we're dressed, and dd1 would be horribly embarrassed if we did or she did.

I haven't said anything to the mum Dewe, I don't really see her very often, if I did it would be a special trip round making an issue of it, and going on experience of what she's like, saying she wouldn't take it very well would be an understatement (not that that would put me off like).

When the girls were about 4/5 I was sat chatting to her in our kitchen while they played in DDs bedroom, and I (think) I said something not completely positive about her chronic lateness or not turning up when she said they would (because it upset DD who'd be waiting (I ended up not telling her they were coming round in the end) and she went ballistic.

She stormed upstairs, physically picked up her DD, and stormed out of the house without another word, face like thunder. (and I wondered afterwards how she was with her DD and whether she had to deal with her mums strop which I would have avoided at all costs had I known how she was going to react)

I didn't like the fact she'd involved and frightened the girls because she couldn't control herself. If the roles had been reversed I would have just said to DD 'come on love, it's time we were going' and gone on our way inwardly fuming.

I'm not very good at taking things I don't want to hear, but I would never lay them on my DDs.

If she asked me outright why DD wasn't going round any more I would tell her, but what would be the point otherwise if DD's not going round there again?

Yes, I don't think a special trip would be ideal, as you say it would maek a huge thing of it, and if she won't take it very well. I hate confrontation too, so would probably avoid it.

How does your dd feel her dd feels about it? If her dd's completely happy/natural about it, then I would be less concerned. If her dd is embarrassed-or maybe feels she's putting on a "show" for your dd then I'd be more concerned.

I think I'd just keep your dd away. Have a stock of excuses why she cant stay over and things like that. Things your dd can say without her finding it is obviously an excuse.

Yanbu at all, if this was a man everyone would be on the paedo calling agenda, why is it different when I a woman. My friends mum and dad used to walk round in their undies when I stayed over as a teen and I did feel a bit . One hot sunny day her mum was even sunbathing in the nude when I went round

This is all very strange

Is she someone who considers herself a treat for others to see?

one of my neighbours insisted on sunnydays walking around the street, doorstep in a bikini, I was like for the love of god , we get it you're slim/tanned put some clothes on!

Agent I dont understand you say in one of your earlier posts that your mum is similar. Bht then you seem to be saying yiull explain the issues to yiur mum and shell help protect your dd. Surely your mum wont see the issue?