Should I give any more thought to DD's friend's mum?

[AgentZigzag]

We've known the mum and her DD for about 10 years and I was friends with the mum for about 4/5 years (I think) before I made a deliberate decision to back the fuck off at speed distance myself from her. But now DD is 12 YO and they don't live that far away (and lives near to someone else DD sees often) she been going round on her own for a few months.

The reason I'm posting is that DD stopped over there a couple of weeks ago and said the mum had walked around in just her bra/pants for about half hour before getting dressed (not related to the bra/pants/hanging washing out thread ). DD stopped again last night along with another couple of lasses and she thought the other girls being there would mean the mum wouldn't walk about like that in front of them, but she did.

That's the bare bones, and I'm totally open to the fact there's absolutely nothing wrong with the scenario because -
-it's completely her right to dress/not dress how she pleases in her own home
-DD feeling uncomfortable could be down to her being 12, we've got no hang ups with our bodies and have been relaxed but respectful of privacy etc and have encouraged the same with DD

However, saying that, there are things, some to do with why I backed off from the mum, which I'm trying to decide whether they're significant to this or not -
-A minor thing, but basic politeness and making guests feel comfortable may sometimes involve getting dressed in a conventional sense, and in front of your 12 YO DDs friend might be one of those times, the mum does seem to have had a blurred boundaries issue with other things
-She did some things that made me in the past, like when DD stopped over at 7 YO (her friend 6 YO) the mum left them on their own in the house (which I was furious about tbh), and another incident at about the same time when all three of them ended up with no clothes on, she asked me to babysit the first time I met her and her DD 2/3 YO, talks inappropriately about her DDs dad in front of her DD/my DD, amongst other things
-If this was DDs friends dad walking about in just his shreddies I would be wondering about him possibly getting a kick from it (although I'm not suggesting this of the mum)

Knowing what I do of her, the most rational answer I can think of is that she's trying to prove a point that there's nothing wrong with peoples bodies. It's something she keeps saying to DD and trying to make DD do things she's not comfortable with, thankfully DD is able to speak up and say no.

Today DD went to get something from a cupboard when the mum was only in bra/pants, and even though there was a lot of room for her to move back, she only gave DD a tiny bit of space to squeeze past, and this does make me feel a bit uneasy, as it did DD (although a horrified cringe would be a more accurate word for DD ).

Someone else I know gets something from knowing what makes other people squirm and then doing it repeatedly 'because they can'. A bit of a power thing? Point scoring? Game Playing? I'm not sure, but it's fucking horrible and I don't like people who enjoy doing it.

Does that sound plausible?

Sorry I've gone on, but it's been bouncing around in my head for a couple of weeks and I'm not sure whether I should encourage DD to stay away or just leave them be. I like her friend and she knows us well so I'm loathe to get involved, but I wouldn't be able to forgive myself if I read it wrong and missed warning signs which might be obvious afterwards if anything more creepy were to happen.

It was me who likened the bucket to a potty Imperial

Probably should have said a guzunder/pisspot

I consider myself to be very relaxed about nudity but I think the whole situation you have described is utterly bizarre. It isn't okay to walk about in your underwear in front of guests or to expect people to wee in a bucket.

Follow your instincts here. Yes it's nearby and your daughter has a phone but really it's very unlikely she'd ring you and ask to leave unless something really extreme was happening. Your daughter is at just that age where they feel awkward anyway and are trying to work out what their values are etc.

I certainly wouldn't feel bad about keeping a distance from her. Im pretty open minded but to be honest this woman sounds like a total weirdo.

I can't imagine any scenario where a grown woman would have reason to end up naked with two small girls. Just ew.
(Did I read that right, btw?)
She sounds like one to avoid.

I'm not sure what to think, quiet. I don't go along with any stereotypes of what makes a person an abuser.

But thinking about it seriously for the first time does make me wonder about vague suspicions I had during the time I was friends with her but didn't give much headspace to.

But it'd be totally offensive of me to suggest they were in any way connected to this.

Ziggy I think the woman sounds 'odd' but not harmful personally. I would let your DD decide for herself whether to go around or not, she's 12 now - old enough to make that decision. I'd just check she has her phone, has credit on it and knows she has your full backing to say 'No' to anything she's not comfortable with, even if it means she ends up being 'rude' to the woman and to just leave if she wants to.

I cross posted with you there.

Earlier you said That doesn't mean I don't think there could be anything else to it, but being a paranoid paedo hunter of a suspicious/overthinking nature already, I think (hope) I would have picked up something else in that vein, and I haven't which (to me) is different to But thinking about it seriously for the first time does make me wonder about vague suspicions I had during the time I was friends with her but didn't give much headspace to...

What sort of things? It might change my opinion?!

It's not appropriate behaviour.

YANBU.

You did read it right Shotgun.

Out of the leaving DD on her own in the house and the nudey incident, the leaving them alone was downright wrong, no doubt about it, but the getting naked made me feel more uncomfortable.

Her and her DD were both naked and getting washed in the bathroom and DD opened the door to go to the loo. The mum just carried on doing whatever and DD (bless her ) felt she should be in the altogether as well to have a wash and so stripped off.

She was really uncomfortable about it afterwards and felt she shouldn't have.

But for me it's not the nakedness that bothered me (because there's nothing wrong in that), it's that the mum didn't say to DD they were using the bathroom and she could come in after, she didn't say there was no need for her to undress and wash with them either, she didn't think her own DD might not feel comfortable.

To say what those suspicions were would be offensive/inappropriate in connection to any sinister interpretations of what's happened with DD stopping over the last couple of weeks MyHead.

Maybe I shouldn't have posted about them then because that's just as bad as saying them outright?

Possibly.

I walk about naked a lot and in my undies a lot - not a naturist nor an exhibitionist - but having only DDs I guess I haven't really thought about it albeit now my eldest is getting older we both should start putting clothes on rather than being slummy!

however if guests were here/dds friends NEVER EVER EVER in a million years EVER would I be anything other than fully dressed.

Embarrassment for them, for my DD, for general fecking politeness I just cannot see any reason whatsoever for being in my undies.

As for pissing in a bucket? There are no words...

I am not going to say lock up your daughter, but 12 is not really old enough to make decisions about contact with an adult you have already had suspicions about.

Sorry Ahead but a mobile phone is no substitute for responsible supervision. Hopefully, your daughter already knows to say 'no' to anyone you tries to do anything she's not comfortable with but it doesn't mean she can stop it if it does just because she has a phone.

She's coming home and letting you know what's happening because she is not sure at her age (with a small experience of other households) whether she should be concerned. But clearly, it's freaked her a bit. Most posters have said it's inappropriate. Don't encourage her to revisit that environment or let her think it's in anyway acceptable.

I'm sorry but I don't think you are over thinking this.you are under think ing it.

This isn't normal behaviour, none of it. Not with other people's children. It concerns me that you don't seem to see this. Most people are very VERY circumspect with other people kids and this woman is the opposite

It's not her job to teach your DD to be less embarrassed about nakedness. I can only assume that you are very private yourself, that you feel guilt about this and worry that you have passed on your attitudes to your DD . And now you somehow feel that this woman's is giving a different view????

I think your judgement that there is nothing wrong here is way off base . Is there something that has happened in your life that has taught you NOT to trust your instincts? You seem to be explaining away behaviour that is ringing alarm bells for nearly everyone else on this thread

she's 12 now - old enough to make that decision. I'd just check she has her phone, has credit on it and knows she has your full backing to say 'No' to anything she's not comfortable with, even if it means she ends up being 'rude' to the woman and to just leave if she wants to.

MyHead that's all very well in theory. But the woman that Agent has describes sounds like someone who would make a 12 y.o. feel particularly uncomfortable about saying 'I've had enough, I'm off now' (as if 12 y.os. or most of us really find it that easy to say that in ordinary social situations, let alone with someone like this).

As most posters have said I think it doesn't really matter what this woman's intentions are. Her behaviour's weird and creepy and if it freaks you out enough to want to keep DD away, that's reason enough to do so.

Your DD obviously can't say no to anything that disturbs her, because she felt she had to push squeeze past an adult dressed in her underwear even though she felt uncomfortable . And get naked with the same adult when she was 6

Beware. I have an ex friend who is similar to this. I wouldn't trust her with my dog.

Your dd isn't old enough to decide.

It's not that I thought her mobile would provide a shield of steel protecting her from anything, but undoubtedly it has to be considered for the useful tool it is meaning she's not isolated in any given situation - as such.

It was just along those types of lines, with other things, that I/we made the decision she could stop over.

MyHead is right though, at 12, you have to give them a certain amount of control over who they mix with, not that that would excuse me sending her into a situation suspecting she's not equipped to deal with anything I've noticed.

I have made a point of telling her in the past that it's OK to be rude and not go along with something just because someone else makes her feel as though she should and she'd come across as rude if she said no. But it's a double edged sword with a fine line between a confident child who feels comfortable saying no and one who's a right royal PITA gobby

(the first bit was to misknit)

Its creepy.

Even if there isn't a sexual component to it all its a form of bullying. She's forcing her view of 'normal' on your daughter.

I have no issues with nudity, I regularly loll about with little to nothing on, BUT I cover up to answer the door or when anyone comes 'round.

So best case: she's a bully
Worst case: it's grooming.

I feel I need to say I am not someone who sees a 'peado' around every corner.
There is a big difference in beening naked in front of your mother and beening naked in front of a stranger, would you be happy for her to be naked in front of a man?

'It's not her job to teach your DD to be less embarrassed about nakedness.'

That's exactly my thoughts Kristina, and not for her to decide I'm OK with letting DD stay on her own in the house at 7 YO (she was 10/11 when I judged the time to be right).

'Is there something that has happened in your life that has taught you NOT to trust your instincts?'

Lots of things, and I didn't post to be vindicated in not having anything to do with this woman, but it does make me feel a bit better that I may be right in reading the situation as odd.

I did fleetingly consider it to be from a sinister angle, but rationalised it as me reading something that wasn't there (and who would actively go about thinking that about someone they know and their DD if there was no other 'evidence' to go on) and that it was plausible to think bra/pants was a one off and it was what she normally did in her own house, knew DD very well and just carried on as per.

Some people are like that and refuse to act differently because people are round, my FIL is a bit like that (and can be pretty rude) but there's nothing sinister in it.

A thought: Isn't it strange that we're so caught up with fearing sexual abuse of children that if we perceive adult behaviour as potentially 'sinister' - and then decide that it probably isn't - then we feel that therefore perhaps we should conclude that that if it's not an attempt to sexualise our children then therefore the behaviour's 'harmless'.
It doesn't matter whether there's a sexual intention behind this woman's behaviour. It's a form of bullying and really out of line. And that should be (and probably at some level is) obvious to the woman herself, however she might try and justify it.

Sorry agent. I really responding to Myhead's post re the mobile. Ironically, I am posting on my mobile so I am not expressing myself as verbously as I normally would. I know mobiles can be a useful tool but my concern would be, it would only become useful after the next 'event'.

At 12, it is completely right that you encourage her independence. You are also still able to give her guidance and advice. You have told her the mother's behaviour is inappropriate and she still wants to go over there?

Apologies that last post of mine comes across as condescending. Lastmango's post is spot on. You are doublethinking which is natural. I think if you take a step back now and read your posts from an outsider's perspective, you'll know your senses should be trusted.

She does still want to go round Misknit, possibly because I've flagged it as odd but not introduced anything sinister? She said she'd stay upstairs until the mum had dressed, but if she knew what was being said on the thread (she has said it's OK for me to post, but I'm obviously not going to let her read it) she'd be...I'm not sure what she'd be, but she'd never go round again.

When I tell her she can't go round, how do I go about that? She understands the nuances of why it's more than just bra/pants, pisspot upstairs, leaving them alone, but I can't say the mum might be getting something out of it can I?

Another thing which explained away why she might behave differently (not that I'm excusing myself for what I decided at the time to be OK) but her family is from another culture (and she's a quite a bit like the traditional stereotype we have in the UK of what people from there are like) and it's possible getting naked is part of that.