Should I give any more thought to DD's friend's mum?

[AgentZigzag]

We've known the mum and her DD for about 10 years and I was friends with the mum for about 4/5 years (I think) before I made a deliberate decision to back the fuck off at speed distance myself from her. But now DD is 12 YO and they don't live that far away (and lives near to someone else DD sees often) she been going round on her own for a few months.

The reason I'm posting is that DD stopped over there a couple of weeks ago and said the mum had walked around in just her bra/pants for about half hour before getting dressed (not related to the bra/pants/hanging washing out thread ). DD stopped again last night along with another couple of lasses and she thought the other girls being there would mean the mum wouldn't walk about like that in front of them, but she did.

That's the bare bones, and I'm totally open to the fact there's absolutely nothing wrong with the scenario because -
-it's completely her right to dress/not dress how she pleases in her own home
-DD feeling uncomfortable could be down to her being 12, we've got no hang ups with our bodies and have been relaxed but respectful of privacy etc and have encouraged the same with DD

However, saying that, there are things, some to do with why I backed off from the mum, which I'm trying to decide whether they're significant to this or not -
-A minor thing, but basic politeness and making guests feel comfortable may sometimes involve getting dressed in a conventional sense, and in front of your 12 YO DDs friend might be one of those times, the mum does seem to have had a blurred boundaries issue with other things
-She did some things that made me in the past, like when DD stopped over at 7 YO (her friend 6 YO) the mum left them on their own in the house (which I was furious about tbh), and another incident at about the same time when all three of them ended up with no clothes on, she asked me to babysit the first time I met her and her DD 2/3 YO, talks inappropriately about her DDs dad in front of her DD/my DD, amongst other things
-If this was DDs friends dad walking about in just his shreddies I would be wondering about him possibly getting a kick from it (although I'm not suggesting this of the mum)

Knowing what I do of her, the most rational answer I can think of is that she's trying to prove a point that there's nothing wrong with peoples bodies. It's something she keeps saying to DD and trying to make DD do things she's not comfortable with, thankfully DD is able to speak up and say no.

Today DD went to get something from a cupboard when the mum was only in bra/pants, and even though there was a lot of room for her to move back, she only gave DD a tiny bit of space to squeeze past, and this does make me feel a bit uneasy, as it did DD (although a horrified cringe would be a more accurate word for DD ).

Someone else I know gets something from knowing what makes other people squirm and then doing it repeatedly 'because they can'. A bit of a power thing? Point scoring? Game Playing? I'm not sure, but it's fucking horrible and I don't like people who enjoy doing it.

Does that sound plausible?

Sorry I've gone on, but it's been bouncing around in my head for a couple of weeks and I'm not sure whether I should encourage DD to stay away or just leave them be. I like her friend and she knows us well so I'm loathe to get involved, but I wouldn't be able to forgive myself if I read it wrong and missed warning signs which might be obvious afterwards if anything more creepy were to happen.

[MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot]

Well, without knowing what the other things are, it's hard to say how I'd feel, but I'd trust my gut if it were me.

The woman just sounds a bit odd and completely comfortable in her own skin... and thinks your DD should be too and tries overly hard to help her feel that way.

The 'getting naked' with two small girls sounded weird when you first said it, but as you've explained how it happened it doesn't at all. I wouldn't stop a visiting small child coming in the bathroom because I or another child was naked... your DD walked in and they didn't shoo her out, that's all. It's not as if she was playing stip poker in the lounge with them or anything.

At 12 your DD is old enough to decide whether their home is somewhere she wants to visit/stay or not. It sounds like you have a good relationship with your DD, just talk to her about it :)

[AgentZigzag]

I would stop a visiting small child from coming in/taking their own clothes off in that situation MyHead, because when you're dealing with children who haven't learnt the boundaries surrounding what's private/what things other people do differently but are OK/how guests are treated, as an adult you have to gently enforce them yourself.

Obviously if her boundaries are different then no problem, but compared to the norm for other people in this country at this time, she was being unusual.

[Misknit]

Just lost my post. Definitely talk to your daughter. Be honest and say that now you have had time to think about it, you are not comfortable with her going over there because of the akward situations she has been put in.

As for alluding to whether the mum is getting some enjoyment out of it. Difficult one - although it's important that children don't think they will only ever get that attention from a man in a dirty mac. But perhaps it's a conversation for another day. It would certainly cause you DD's feelings about her friend to change.

Maybe just approach the toilet angle and that you're not happy that she could be embarrassed any further with the 'bohemian' outlook in the household.

[EhricLovesTeamQhuay]

I visited friends who lived in holland when I was a teenager. They weren't weird and naked but they had some different customs and a very blunt/no nonsense way of dealing with things. They didn't do embarrassment or nicety in the way my family did, and on talking to my Dutch friend it seems that is fairly typical - ie a cultural difference. It sounds as though this might be what is going on here. Cultures where people wash or sauna together - there is no concept of inappropriate nakedness especially between adults and children. The issue of being unrelated just wouldn't occur. I'm not saying this woman doesn't have very poor social skills and that she really should take on some awareness of cultural norms in the UK, but I doubt there is a sinister intent.
Having said that, your DD absolutely doesn't have to go there if she doesn't want to. I would give her the choice tbh, and maybe suggest that sleepovers are held at yours rather than hers.

[ll31]

I wouldn't be happy with my child staying overnight tbh. Not sure there's anything sinister,but equally not sure there isn't. her behaviour to me seems v strange so I'd prefer my child not to be in that situation

[squiddle]

I'd tell your dd not to go there anymore because it's all a bit weird and boundary-less - and 12 year olds aren't mature enough to create their own boundaries. You don't have to feel there is a sinister motivation to stop her going round - feeling uncomfortable with the mum is enough. Its a good lesson for your dd really - someone crosses boundaries and you feel weird = back off (as you yourself did). Ehric's comments are really useful, I think.

[acceptableinthe80s]

Fgs, the woman isn't walking around naked, she has underwear on. Do none of you allow your children to go to a beach in case there are women in bikinis?
There is nothing sinister about walking around in your underwear in your own home.
I spent a lot of time at my best friends home growing up as she didn't have an annoying older brother, her parents were very liberal and often walked around semi naked. Not everyone is hung up on the naked body.
Just last week I was getting ready for a night out at my friends house as was her teenage daughter and friends, we were all sat around in our underwear, no-one seemed uncomfortable.
Some of the other things you mentioned Op are a bit though.

[LaurieFairyCake]

Your 12 year old felt under enough pressure to undress and let herself be washed by this woman.

I'm sure you're doing your very best to help her to say no to stuff that makes her uncomfortable but the fact is she is still a vulnerable child.

It doesn't sound like an appropriate place to stay over - perhaps it could just be daytime activities.?

[IsBella]

I don't think there's anything wrong with going about in your underwear in your own house when guests are there, depending on context. If it's because she's getting ready for the day and has come down to pick up a hairbrush or deodorant from the bathroom or something, fair enough. If it's because she's decided it's underwear-day in a "League of Gentleman" weirdy-fest, then it's not OK.

It's the bucket and the making the kid push past her and the pressure to strip off and get in the bath that's more of an issue IMO. I agree with this: "Even if there isn't a sexual component to it all its a form of bullying. She's forcing her view of 'normal' on your daughter."

There probably isn't anything sexual in it - people who groom children for sexual abuse usually take care to groom that child's family and friends as well, and this woman is certainly not doing that is she - but so what? It's the refusal to make your DD feel comfortable in her home that's the problem. There's a balance between "this is my home and I have the right to go about my normal business even when I have guests in it" and "there are guests, let's put on a show and pretend we're normal", isn't there? This woman goes too far the other way and doesn't make any allowances for guests at all. Whether or not there's a sinister element to that, there's certainly an uncomfortable one for your DD and at 12 I think there's still some merit in sending out the message that they shouldn't be in environments/ situations which make them feel icky/ uncomfortable.

I think the fact that your DD has specifically told you about these incidents and agreed that you post here (I can imagine my 11 year old telling me how stupid and over-protective I am if I was going to post about sth she didn't feel was any problem) means that enough of her spidey sense has been alerted for you to have that message confirmed and that boundary re-iterated: that it's not OK to feel weirded out by someone and that you should avoid situations where that happens.

[SpanishFly]

Op I'd definitely have stopped a 6yo coming into a bathroom where I and my child was naked. Embarrassing for everyone at the very least. But to then let her strip off? Weird. I'm not even sure why anyone would have a naked wash - just have a shower!

The comparisons with going to the beach and/or getting ready for a night out are ridiculous. In both of these scenarios there is an expectation and normalcy of being half naked. And you're not put into a tight situation where you have to squeeze past a semi naked person either. Sending my child to sleep over at a friend's house shouldn't involve wandering around half naked and pissing in a bucket.

If you want your dd to stay away, be semi honest, ie she's maybe not ready to hear the idea that the mum might be getting a kick out of it (and you don't want to accuse her when you don't know) but tell her you're not happy that she feels uncomfortable and embarrassed and that you're supporting her going with her gut feeling, which is important. And that you'd have felt uncomfortable too in such a situation.  

[ImTooHecsyForYourParty]

You can't look at it in isolation though, Acceptableinthe80s. You have to look at the entire situation. Which is someone walking round in their underwear + talking inappropriately + creating small gaps that a child has to squeeze through to get past them in their underwear + making them use a bucket + making them strip off + + +

It's like saying your boss gives you a hug? Well, that's ok. While being told that he also smacks your arse and feels you up. Sometimes the other, less acceptable things that are done make what would otherwise be ok (although I disagree that walking round in your undies in front of other people's kids is ok) part of what is not ok. If you see where I am coming from.

[Wouldntyouliketoknow]

What does her DD think about it? Is she embarrassed of her mum's behaviour or does she treat it as normal? She must also be cringing when her friends are there, surely?

[EhricLovesTeamQhuay]

Laurie, if I read it right she was 6 when the bathroom incident happened.

[freddiemisagreatshag]

I would be worrying about it too if I were you and I speak as someone who has wandered downstairs in t-shirt and knickers to find half the 1stXV rugby team asleep in my living room.

[fuzzpig]

Makes me uncomfortable reading it TBH. I don't think you're over thinking.

Some of the things she is doing reminds me of what DH's mother did all the time, which was part of a much bigger abuse scenario, and the reason she will never be anywhere near my children. Part of it was 'covert incest' - DH's dad was away, she had needs that she fulfilled by being far too close to her children (both sexes). Not saying that this woman is necessarily getting kicks out of it - but the similar behaviour you describe is inappropriate IMO and I'm not at all surprised your DD is uncomfortable.

The fact DD is uncomfortable enough to ask you means YWNBU to step in and suggest no more sleepovers there. No reason the friend can't stay at yours. I'm just wondering if your DD will look back on this one day and think OMG I can't believe my mum let me go there. Does that make sense? I know I'm more attuned to stuff like that as I was also abused (by a family member also) but I think, intent or not, the behaviour is very unfair on your DD and that is a good enough reason to intervene. TBH even the bucket thing alone is reason enough for me, if you don't want to delve into the other incidents.

[AgentZigzag]

Thanks for all your time and replies, they're enormously helpful.

Since I realised I got nothing positive or enriching from interacting with other people (it makes me feel ill, paranoid, insecure and I endlessly obsess over what was said/meant afterwards) and stopped contact, I'm so much happier. But it made me realise I don't really like other people and this can be a problem by clouding my judgement a bit. If I don't like other people then it's not surprising I don't like this woman is it? I posted to find out which bit was me and which bits other people would also find unacceptable.

The things I've described are mostly over a 10 year period, so taken together they add up to more than what they seem when they're going on over time.

What you say Ehric is along the lines I was thinking, and it is possible it's innocent.

The mum had her clothes set out over the back of a chair both times, you can't help but wonder why she didn't just put the fucking things on? So definitely not nipping in to get something.

Wouldntyou - DD did mention it to her friend who just shrugged it off and DD didn't say anything else about it, but by the sounds of it the bucket is a normal thing and they use it rather than going down to the toilet. It's only a terrace house and not going to be a huge trek, but that's up to them what they do in their own home.

I think DD was 7 possibly 8 at the most when the bathroom thing happened, she was definitely old enough to notice it was a bit off.

[Birdsgottafly]

My Mother has done all of the things mentioned, whilst I was growing up and much more. I had no friends because of her behaviour. I would say that she has a Personality Disorder and enjoys putting herself in a powerful position and she does enjoy other people's discomfort. I have had to challenge her and set the boundaries for my children. Your DD has the right to do that and if not able then do it for her, she shouldn't have to put up with any behaviour that makes her feel uncomfortable. Speak to her and if you want her to still go there, speak to the girls Mother. I often wish that other parents would have done, rather than isolate me and allow my Mother to continue, without ever being questioned.

[AgentZigzag]

The person who DD goes to see who lives near this woman is my mum, and oddly they're quite similar (and I don't get on with my mum either).

Mum used to do things in front of my friends that stamped all over boundaries, made a point of doing things that made other people uncomfortable. It's definitely a control/'you'll obey me' kind of thing, but I know that usually goes hand in hand with manipulating other people and I wonder how much of this the woman does to people around her.

Although I don't have much to do with her (my mum) the DDs go round and she knows this woman and will remember her leaving DD on her own/bathroom incident because I talked about it to her at the time. I wondered whether it'd be worth asking her what she thought, I'm a bit reluctant because I've decided already DD's not going round again and given I don't talk to her as such I wouldn't feel comfortable doing it. But the friend goes round to my mums to see DD so she might have an insight I haven't got.

[MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot]

What does your DD think/want to do?

[KristinaM]

You've answered my questions zigzag. In you childhood your mother walked all over your boundaries and you didn't learn to trust your own instincts. That's why you think it's you who has a a problem rather than this woman

[AgentZigzag]

Even though it's short your post made me really think Kristina, and you're probably right. She takes more of a parental role with DD than that of a traditional GP (very controlling), and she micromanaged my dads behaviour to an abusive level.

I don't trust my instincts, but that's not to say I'm not bolshy confident in a lot of things I do. I know for sure I was right to cut contact with the woman, I wasn't in any doubt and couldn't give a monkeys what she thinks about me for doing it. Definitely not a people pleaser

I was thinking about DDs friends dad, and this is the kind of thing which backs up the idea that either I'm very unlucky in the people I know or it's me and not the world, because I don't like him either

Funnily enough it's because he goes over the boundaries too (they were together when I first knew them), he used to say inappropriately flirty things to me in front of the mum! It was awful, he's still the same when I see him now even if I'm with someone else so I avoid him like the plague.

How can DD effectively learn how it all works if it confuses the fuck out of me??

[AgentZigzag]

DD wants to still be friends with the girl MyHead, she can meet up with the friend at my mums house and maybe I could get my shit together enough to ask the girl round again.

Because they've been friends for so long it'd be a shame to stop them seeing each other for no fault of either of them.

[ImperialBlether]

"But thinking about it seriously for the first time does make me wonder about vague suspicions I had during the time I was friends with her but didn't give much headspace to."

Can you say what those suspicions were then, OP?

Btw I think you should trust your instincts more than you do. Your mum had no sense of boundaries, but your instinct told you that. It's the same with the other woman.

It's interesting you say you don't like people. Is there a reason behind that, like people not being what they seem or letting you down?

[AgentZigzag]

Well that didn't work out very well.

DD went round to my mums tonight and asked the friend to stop the night too, she's just rung because to ask if I'll drop her toothbrush round and said the woman had been invited round and is having tea with them! Which DD isn't too chuffed with, but doesn't feel she can do anything.

I'm going to have to talk to mum about it aren't I?

(Imperial - I regret saying that about the suspicions and shouldn't have, sorry. There have been very few people who I haven't thought 'well that just backs up why I don't have anything to do with anyone' I think they're criticising privately even if outwardly nice, I find talking exhausting, and afterwards is just so difficult with the micro analysis of what was said/meant that it's just not worth it.)

[CruCru]

Thing is - after 12 is quite grown up. It would be quite perculiar to ask adults to toilet in a bucket when there is a working toilet. I don't see why your daughters friends should be treated differently.

Put a stop to the sleepovers. They can see each other in the day.