to be very suprised at the school letter about Halal meat?

[fromparistoberlin]

opended DS bag and read a letter with a voting slip basically saying

alot of parents have asked for Halal meat (fair enough)
The school dinner providers can only do Halal OR non-Halal (erm we are in London, slightly surpised)

so we either vote for ALL Halal, or non Halal

so basically an ethical dilemna!

Vote A, feel like a bigot

Vote B, feel slightly uncomfortable that something I dont really fully understand is being imposed

I am going to write and say this is a really unfair way to handle it and they should fucking change suppliers, we are in London FFS

nice little ethical mind fuck THANKS school!

I would NEVER vote for Halal on the basis that I feel it is animal cruelty.

I do not understand how halal slaughter is cruel but non-halal slaughter isn't - Couthy can you explain?

But killing animals for meat is cruel. The dairy industry is cruel. Even free range eggs r not what you think. Animals die in transport due to cramped conditions or exposure. It is all bloody cruel whatever the slaughter process is.

I disagree with Kosher slaughter too. It's all the same - not following the practices we would usually expect in an abbatoir, increasing the suffering of the animals.

Same reason I'd never eat foie gras etc.

And those getting FSM's often DON'T have the option of providing a packed lunch. So therefore there should be a sensible option for them.

In what way though Couthy - what practices do you feel increase suffering?

Eating Halal food may not contravene my religious rights - but that would be difficult as I believe that ALL religion is a construct formed by humans before science was able to explain things that humans wanted answers for - but it does contravene my ethical stance.

Neither should be more important than the other.

Just because I don't follow some religion or other, it doesn't mean that my beliefs should be discounted.

You haven't explained what the ethical issue is though, what are your beliefs?

Rather than going halal, why can't the school expand the vegetarian options? For example, two meat dishes, two vegetarian. Then everyone gets a choice.

A Nursery or school being fully veggie and making up a large portion of the children's protein requirements from dairy products - lasagne = dairy, macaroni cheese = dairy, yoghurts = dairy... - would be a major issue with me, given that DS3 is anaphylactic to dairy AND will be on FSM's...

So far not one meat eating person has been able to explain what they think the differences are.

Couthy - what is the ethical issue with halal?

And my dairy allergic DS can't eat quorn either, as he's also allergic to soy.

TRUE Halal food is that which hasn't been pre-stunned. As in this country there is no obligation to print on the packaging whether it is 'Halal' that has been stunned, or Halal that hasn't been stunned, I feel it IS an ethical consideration UNTIL either ALL 'Halal' meat is stunned, or until it is CLEAR on the packing that it hasn't been stunned.

My objection is to the fact that TRUE Halal food hasn't been stunned.

couthy in your shoes I'd no way trust a kitchen to cater for my child. It's scary how little clue kitchen staff can have!

And why should one person's beliefs through religion be taken more seriously than another person's beliefs through their own ethics?

They are BOTH belief systems.

I can't understand why everyone else's beliefs are taken more seriously because they follow a religion than mine are because I don't.

Stunning its self is considered cruel by people who understand how it works.

90% of halal meat is stunned first. I would not be at all surprised if only 90% of non-halal meat is stunned correctly anyway.

Given how cruel the process of stunning animals (particularly chickens) is anyway - hanging them upside down and stunning them by dunking them in water - I don't see that slitting their throats quickly is more cruel.

As I've said before, industrial meat (and dairy and egg) production is cruel. Suddenly having "ethical concerns" about the last few seconds of the animals life is bordering on the ridiculous. Focussing on largely irrelevant details in order to obscure the real objection.

That's chickens being hung and dunked btw, not sure my post was clear.

There seems to be a fair bit of misinformation around - I do wonder where it's come from and what motivation lie behind it.

TRUE Halal food is that which hasn't been pre-stunned. As in this country there is no obligation to print on the packaging whether it is 'Halal' that has been stunned, or Halal that hasn't been stunned, I feel it IS an ethical consideration UNTIL either ALL 'Halal' meat is stunned, or until it is CLEAR on the packing that it hasn't been stunned.

I totally agree. I don't think non stunned halal should be allowed if I'm honest. I think it undermines all the good work done in terms of animal welfare.

I'm sure there will be variatione between countries/parts of the religion as to what constitutes 'proper' halal.

I'd be interested in why meat eaters think non halal abbatoirs are cruelty free. They arent. Stunning is pretty horrific if you've ever watched. Animals often come too when hung upside down (and as someone said, stunned animals are often paralysed but conscious) and blod rushes to the brain, so are kicked when their throats are slit - thats how all animals are killed. They slit their throats while they are hung upside down by one leg. Fucking agony if you are a large animal like a cow. Until that point they may have been reared in over crowded appalling conditions. Yes, in this country. Then transported miles, some die, some are injured or sick, chickens have amonia burns on their legs - you can see these on the finished carcass.
You want meat, its cruel. So bleating about halal is slightly hypocritical.
I do eat meat every 2 months or so. A friend rears chickens and they are killed on her land by having their heads removed (the cone method). I'm sure there's a micro second of pain but until that point they free roam around her large garden. I pick one, the deed is done, she plucks it and removes the innards and I take it home. Killing is killing if you want to eat meat but dont beat around the bush thats there's a gentle 'dignitas' way. There isnt. Slitting a throat is the fastest way. But if you want lots of meat because you eat the stuff daily then you're going to get mass produced factory farmed conveyer belt abbatoir methods where animals are treated like non sentient products and that is cruel.