to be very suprised at the school letter about Halal meat?

[fromparistoberlin]

opended DS bag and read a letter with a voting slip basically saying

alot of parents have asked for Halal meat (fair enough)
The school dinner providers can only do Halal OR non-Halal (erm we are in London, slightly surpised)

so we either vote for ALL Halal, or non Halal

so basically an ethical dilemna!

Vote A, feel like a bigot

Vote B, feel slightly uncomfortable that something I dont really fully understand is being imposed

I am going to write and say this is a really unfair way to handle it and they should fucking change suppliers, we are in London FFS

nice little ethical mind fuck THANKS school!

[SPsYoniTheOneAndOnly]

Meat is meat. If you are willing it eat it whether its blessed or not shouldn't matter as it has been killed which isn't nice for the animal anyway.

That cow would rather be chilling in a field and sitting in the rain then be a steak on someone's plate so either way its not a happy ending.

I eat meat. I will eat from take aways even if says halal and I eat non halal meat. I have no religious beliefs.

[Wheresmycaffeinedrip]

If you are already allowing your child to eat the cheap, intensively farmed, worse life imaginable horrendously treated meat at school then there's no point in even worrying if its halal or not. That animal
Had a shit life and a shit death.

Those suggesting the Muslim kids go veggi or take a packed lunch, well u shouldn't suggest alternatives that u yourself wouldn't be willing to take. That just makes you sound like you view these children as second rate citizens. It's a vege meal, what's the problem??? It's perfectly fine.

Those who say their kids wouldn't eat the vege option? Well if some lump of mystery meat is the only edible part of the meal then why on earth have you not complained? Because meat and vege meals served at school should be of equal standard!

[Wheresmycaffeinedrip]

And more importantly they are at school for their education. The fact that you are able to get them fed a hot meal while they are there makes you very lucky. You are also bloody lucky if they are any good.Given that many aren't able to provide that. Plenty of schools have packed lunches only. And plenty of schools have poor quality food.

[plinkyplonks]

Family is muslim, but very strongly disagree with Halal meat. Animals often slaughtered in absolutely appalling conditions, even worse than they are for non Halal meat. I'd be voting no frankly. They should do what my dad does, eat veggie when eating out.

[HoppinMad]

I am guessing you have witnessed the slaughter with your very own eyes then plinky? I only ask because I have read of a few posters on here who having actually been to an abattoir say different (their comments kinda contradict what you are saying).
Dont have time to go through the 17 pages to prove my point

[bubblesinthesky]

I would vote against it because DD has sikh friends who although they eat meat are not allowed to eat halal. If there are any sikhs at the school and they introduce halal they are being discriminated against just as much as muslims who won't eat halal.

Very dificult the only answer is what you suggest in the OP

[plinkyplonks]

HoppinMad I did read the previous 17 pages and the OP's intro, and after all that well I'm kinda still going to have to disagree with them because I have seen animals slaughtered the 'halal' way and non Halal way indeed with my 'very own eyes'. And although there is no doubt that the majority of mass meat production is in itself morally questionable, in case of Halal it's even more disgusting and cruel.

It's not just the method of killing the animal I disagree with (slitting the animals throat), I know people who run 'Halal' shops where meat is bought from dubious sources and kept in unhygienic conditions :( I won't use my money to support it, but it's individual moral / financial decision and I don't expect anyone else to agree with me.

[fromparistoberlin]

Halal or the usul way that they kills them, its always going to pretty shit isnt it? I am just not sure 17 pages in if Halal is any worse, or better in how they kill them to be honest

like I said my main issue is around having a majority religious view potentially imposed in an essentially non religious school

I think its a hot potato! lovely vege non religious potato

however I shall write, and lets hope they can agree a compromise

I would rather go 100% vege to be honest

[HoHoHoNoYouDont]

Do keep us updated OP

[thermalsinapril]

I would never eat Halal meat, because 20 per cent of the time, the animal won't have been unconscious when its throat was slit. This means that on one day of every 5-day school week, that's what will be on the school dinner menu - meat that was prepared in this cruel way.

[ATJabberwocky]

I view Halal as marginally more cruel than 'normal', I do think the decision should reflect the pupil's needs, what about the Jewish or Sikh children?

Also, if pork is being prepared in the same kitchen doesn't this undermine the Halal meat being used?

[infamouspoo]

'like I said my main issue is around having a majority religious view potentially imposed in an essentially non religious school'

Cos that doesnt happen with Christianity. Oh wait....

[fromparistoberlin]

I chose to not attend a CofE school for that very reason infamouspoo
and I am christian!

no need to throw that one at me ....

[Moominsarehippos]

So the school is non-dom? So there shouldn't be any religious concessions then.

I guess that parents choose to send their children becasue is is not religious or because its not christian, or because its a good/better school. Do the kids ever pray (before meals, at school services or ceremonies)? If I was a very religious type, I'd go for a faith school, failing that a non-dom and expect children to all eat the same, wear the same uniform, attend the same lessons, etc.

I suppose people are concerned about the 'thin end of the wedge' - will other groups (not neccesarily religous) also ask for changes in the way the school operates? Will parents ask for female teachers to cover their legs, button up their blouses and cover their hair? Will they ask for segregated casses of boys and girls?

Where I grew up it was Catholic schools and Protestant schools. It was shit. We didn't all come out good christians, just suspicious and ignorant of the 'other lot'. This is why I don't approve of faith schools.

What are we teaching our kids - who do we obey? The Queen, the Country, God, Our God not Yours?

[ophelia275]

I think that the way the meat is prepared is not really an issue because at the end of the day, if you are a meat eater you are aware that you are eating something that has been killed and there isn't really a "nice" way to kill an animal, they all die at the end of the day and most of them are killed in a conveyor belt system of some sort. Therefore, although there may be a slight difference in the amount of pain the animal goes through (which I am not convinced about), I think it is a bit rich of any meat eater to be high and mighty about not eating halal or kosher meat because of the way the animal has been killed when ALL meat means that an animal has been killed and will be in some element of pain.

However, I don't think it would be fair to the non-Muslim children if it means they can no longer eat things like pork or bacon and I wonder why one religious preference trumps another (for example Sikh childrens dietary needs or Jewish childrens dietary needs, both of whom would not be able to eat halal meat if they are religious). I think it would perhaps be better to maintain the status quo and have those families, whether they are Muslims or vegetarians (or any groups that require a special diet) to bring in a packed lunch rather than expecting everyone else to adapt around them. For example, presumably at the moment, any orthodox Jewish children would be required to bring in a packed lunch box if they want to keep kosher as they wouldn't be able to eat food cooked in the main canteen that has non-kosher utensils/ingredients.

[Peachy]

Our school ( a CofW) manages to provide Halal, Non Halal (the majority) Veggie, and a further option (jacket potato / salad). We are a city with a decent sized Muslim population, and it has never been an issue. How bizarre it should become so for your LEA.. indeed, my son's ((admittedly small) village school manages to turn out a dairy free option as well each day just for him.

[Peachy]

(and whilst I'd love a secular school as Moomin says, it's simply not available to us as a catchment school and the other one in our small town is over subscribed in it's own catchment, let alone taking out of area applications! I am a Christian, but a minor branch and I believe in a secular educational system and Government)

[infamouspoo]

My kids school is non-dom/secular yet they have assemblies, sing hymns, do Easter/Christmas. You have Christianity coming out of your ears. I find it very intrusive.
I'm all for a secular education and thats before we get to the dining room!

[BackOnlyBriefly]

If you genuinely care about the welfare of the animals that you're eating, then you will take care to source your meat from a reliable ethical supplier, and then there won't be any danger of you eating halal meat against your wishes.

Someone's obviously not been paying attention.

Also I see people saying that we have no right to care what meat we eat but that muslims etc do have a right to care. Can't the posters taking that position see how hypocritical that is?

The other argument I take issue with is that because animals are treated poorly it's ok for them to be treated worse to please god.

Try saying it out loud in the privacy of your own homes and listen to what you are saying.

[Jinsei]

I know exactly what I'm saying thanks, don't need to say it out loud.

Everyone has a right to care what meat they eat, regardless of their religion. However, I think it's absurd to argue against halal meat on the grounds of animal welfare if you're not equally concerned about the welfare of animals slaughtered in a non-halal way. Have you ever seen what a "normal" abattoir is like?

If you are Muslim, then it's likely that you'll want to buy halal meat. If you're Jewish, you'll probably want kosher meat. If you care about animal welfare, you will probably buy your meat from a known ethical supplier, or else you just won't eat it. I can't see why anyone who did care about animal welfare would buy any old cheap meat from s takeaway chain, whether that was halal or not.

[infamouspoo]

I think with all the horse meat found in school dinners there's a lot more to worry about. I bet those horses werent treated very ethically.

[thermalsinapril]

Spot on "BackOnlyBriefly*.

[BackOnlyBriefly]

Jinsei, it's not a matter of choosing where to get your meat from since in many cases there is no choice. In schools for example. That's kinda what we were talking about.

If I had my way schools would have to get meat from ethical suppliers right now, but we never will be able to if we have to appease religious groups.

crescentmoon You asked and I answered.

If we have agreed that religious sensibilities trump everything else then we must have all meat killed the proper halal way. That means not stunning it at all. Which is clearly less humane.

Some Muslims have decided that stunning isn't a deal breaker and some here are suggesting ignoring those muslims who want it done as Allah told them. If you'd going to put religion first then I don't see how you can morally dismiss the requirements of the more devout Muslims.

In any case we have established that some religious people are forbidden to eat halal meat. So if we say that we must respect religion that puts us in an impossible position. You have to choose to ignore one religion or the other. Which one? Shall we have a vote now?

In addition to this as I said before an agreement that religion must decide means that we cannot look for even more humane ways. Next year - or in a thousand years - we may find a method that's really good, but we will not be allowed to use it because Islam doesn't like it.