to be very suprised at the school letter about Halal meat?

[fromparistoberlin]

opended DS bag and read a letter with a voting slip basically saying

alot of parents have asked for Halal meat (fair enough)
The school dinner providers can only do Halal OR non-Halal (erm we are in London, slightly surpised)

so we either vote for ALL Halal, or non Halal

so basically an ethical dilemna!

Vote A, feel like a bigot

Vote B, feel slightly uncomfortable that something I dont really fully understand is being imposed

I am going to write and say this is a really unfair way to handle it and they should fucking change suppliers, we are in London FFS

nice little ethical mind fuck THANKS school!

Well said "infamous"!!!

its kosher meat that absolutely cannot be stunned before slaughter

So now it's all the fault of the Jews? They're the ones who insist on "cruelty"? Hmmm, anti-semitism is a nasty thing.

Agree Infamous. I always hope that debates like this encourage more people to go veggie permanently. Mass slaughtering doesn't really encompass humane killing. And at the end of the day you are eating animal flesh... (shudder)

I tend to agree with you infamous.

Okay, I'm vegetarian, so I wouldn't claim to be an expert. But is it not the case that meat is tested for adrenaline, which is released if the animal is very stressed. And if the adrenaline levels are too high, the meat can't be sold. So they can't have animals that are conscious after stunning or the adrenaline levels would be too high?

I also thought non-halal cattle had a bolt through the head, not electric stunning. Hasn't stunning of chicken been largely replaced with gassing, which is more humane but not halal?

I don't know how humane different butchery methods are, but if people have a strong belief that they won't eat halal or non halal meat based on ethics, that is equivalent to people eating halal meat because they are Muslim or not eating it because they are Sikh. Equality law is meant to be about religion and belief, not just religious belief. Being religious does not make your beliefs somehow more protected or valid than other people's.

infamous is right. It's insane to pretend that ordinary abattoir slaughtered meat is more "humane" than halal slaughtered meat.

It's not insane; it is an issue there are different opinions on. Even if it was irrational, that is irrelevant. Irrational beliefs are as protected as rational ones.

its kosher meat that absolutely cannot be stunned before slaughter

'So now it's all the fault of the Jews? They're the ones who insist on "cruelty"? Hmmm, anti-semitism is a nasty thing.'

Upthechimney that is the worst case of being professionally and completely unnecessarily offended I have ever seen on MN, and I've seen some daft shit in my time.

far as I know chickens are still stunned by having their heads dragged through electrified water. Many lift their heads though. Its a conveyor belt method with machines because we wants lots and lots of meat.
I'm not anti meat and I'm not sqeamish. I watch my meat killed but you want daily meat then you have to have mass methods of slaughter and thats cruel halal or non halal.
I suspect the old method of eating it as a treat so the family pig had its throat slit, while conscious, behind the house, was far less cruel than mass produced meat. That pig then lasted the year because it was eaten rarely. I've been in abbatoirs and seen animals slipping, kicked at and hit because its a production line and people are in a hurry. I've seen 'stunned' animals wake when their throats are cut. I've watched jewish slaughter (of chickens, I've not seen the big animals) and it was quick. I've been in Morocco and seen goats have their throats cut the halal method behind the house and I've seen my dinner killed. Out of all of it the abbatoir in the UK with its so-called humane method was by far the worst. Personally I dont give a crap about the religious side, I want the best method and for me that was eating meat rarely, having it be chicken and having its head chopped off. Everybody makes their own choices but IMO if you've gone for factory farmed mass produced meat you dont have a leg to stand on when complaining halal or kosher is cruel. Its all the same.

IP, can you not understand that is YOUR opinion? Other people will have different opinions on what is and is not ethical. For some people this will be based on understanding of all the issues, for some people it will based on sentiment, for some it will be based on trust of informed authority (the UK has decided that non-halal meat must be stunned because those authorities believe it is more humane).

If you have a strong feeling that non stunning is more humane, you should campaign for the law to be changed in UK abattoirs. That is an entirely different matter to the one being discussed.

Whatever reason somebody has for holding an ethical position about slaughter methods, their beliefs are protected in law, just as those of the Sikhs not to eat halal meat for religious reasons are protected in law. There is no reason in terms of equality of people for making only halal meat available.

Ok few things

crescent In hanafi madhab shellfish is Haram afaik

Stunned meat debate.

In the UK there are two halal authorisation bodies, HMC and HFA, HFA stun their meat, HMC don't. It is not rocket science to find out if the halal meat is stunned or not. Places which sell halal meat have to display their halal certificate which will be from HMC or HFA.

Some Muslims won't eat HFA meat. Majority do.

Kosher covers Halal, so Muslims can eat Kosher meat.

The kosher dietary requirements are stricter. Halal meat is about how the meat is killed, not about if the meat touched a pan that was previously used for something else and after been thoroughly washed is being used to cook halal meat.

Pure liquid removes impurities in Islam, so even if something has urine on it (say clothes) and you wash it then you can pray in it after it has been washed. This is the same.

Therefore the issue about utensils and stuff is not there. Staff will already have a system for making sure what is currently being used for vegi/chicken option is not used for meat/beef/pork option that some sections of communities dont eat.

My mums school has all halal meat. My dds school doesnt and she eats veg every day. I am not bothered.

I did say it was my opinion. My kids actually have packed lunches.

my dc school has 6 choices each day. They are 2 meat options non halal or one meat and one fish option. One halal option one vegetarian option one jacket potato option and a salad choice. And yes prices went up last year

As I said earlier, Lancashire Council of Mosques urge Muslim children in Lancashire to boycott the halal meat served in Lancashire schools because it is stunned. So even if the school goes 'halal' there is a chance there will still be an issue.

Can I ask what will they do about bacon or pork?

Don't eat meat, but find Halal butchery abhorrent on animal welfare grounds.

I would be voting No.

Going vegi means doing packed lunches come rain or shine for DD2 and those are in veritably ham (oops) as the only vegi sandwich fillings she will eat are chocolate spread or jam.

Also my Jewish DF is always a fish eating veggi except at her Dad's. She is quite happy to accept that special diets are not catered for in every corner of the country.

Absolutely fucking ridiculous! We are a non religious family . It would be non halal for us as why should religion be constantly pushed down our fucking throats!

hmm but startail in inner London special diets are normally catered for, , Hospitals, Care homes etc all cater for Halal/kosher/Hindu/veggie/vegan diets....

Also many KFCs Nandos etc are also halal in this area as halal diet is something that is normally catered for, I think in my borough my dds school is the only one which doesnt offer halal meat. The parents are bothered but not that bothered coz in our borough all kids get fsm anyway.

what how is eating halal meat pushing religion down your throats?

No ones being forced to eat it and the kids won't have any idea. It's hardly pushing religion down throats? It is merely catering for dietary requirements.