to finally be able to say there has been too much immigration

[moogy1a]

Now that UKIP have made massive gains in local elections,conservatives stating that major changes need to be made and labour admit that they made a big mistake in having an almost open door policy can I finally say this in public without the hysterical accusations of being racist?

I don't think people are called racist simply for wanting a finite number. It's all about how you make your argument.

I mean, every country in the world has immigration controls -- most people accept that it's appropriate to limit numbers. But how you limit those numbers is where sometimes racist arguments can appear.

For example, people telling me that they're okay with immigrants like me (American) coming in -- I think that's kind of racist, because they're assuming from my nationality that I work and contribute, and other nationalities don't.

It's also problematic because throughout history, extremist racist parties have always targeted immigrants/outsiders, and so you have to be careful not to repeat their arguments.

dreaming - I used to be with you on that. But I was talking about Europe a few years ago with a friend who works for the Foreign Office, and he told me then that it was an open secret in the FO that the costs and benefits of EU membership were so finely balanced that no-one wanted to do an official study in case it inflamed Euroscepticism. This was before the bailouts. Since then the cracks in the EU have become quite worryingly large and the pull for greater integration correspondingly more insistent. ;

I am well-travelled, fluent in 3 European languages and very in favour of international trade and co-operation. But over recent years I have become increasingly concerned by the steady advance of unelected Eurocracy, which started with EU law and post-credit crunch is pushing ever further into fiscal union. The EU project is, to my eye, looking increasingly undemocratic. I used to be very pro-Europe, but more recently I really am not so sure: for me it jumped the shark when democratically elected governments in Greece and Italy were simply removed by European technocrats.

I think a lot of what is currently being written off as right-wing bigotry (eg objections to accession state migrants, protest at misapplication of human rights law) is rooted in ordinary voters' concerns about the transfers of power to a basically unelected and unaccountable supranational bureaucracy.

I'm no big fan of the EU -- for me, it is the insane levels of corruption and incompetence that drive me nuts.

But I think the answer is to stay in and try to reform it, not to leave.

The UK is intimately linked with Europe on so many fronts, whether they like it or not. Why would you want to give up your voice and decision-making power within the bureaucracy that makes so many decisions affecting you? Even if the UK withdraws, EU policy will still have a massive impact on its trade, economic, social, etc relationships, only the UK will have no power to affect them.

You're right dreaming - that's the counter-argument and it's a strong one. There was a great article in The Economist last year that weighed up the pros and cons and the likely outcomes of leaving, only to draw a conclusion (IIRC) quite close to yours.

I guess for me there's a difference between being influence by EU policy as we adjust to dealing with it, and having an obligation to ratify legislation introduced by an organisation with no democratic mandate. The latter really bothers me, and it seems to be happening more and more.

I'm also aware that EU membership is a bit off-topic and don't want to hijack. I bring up the EU thing only because I think the EU democratic deficit (as well as the corruption and incompetence you rightly mention) are huge but little-acknowledged contributors to anti-immigration sentiment as well as to the rise of UKIP. I think it's mistaken to write these things off as purely being about small-mindedness and bigotry.

So we seem to be somewhat currently beholden to the EU really.

I was reception PTA rep and sent same emails and invites to all parents so yes I have tried. If you read the earlier posts you would see that. As I've also said there are parents from all over the world but some won't/can't mix. Yes I've said hello and invited to parties. Not even a "no thank you" of course would serve vegetarian food. But it's obviously easier for some posters to wade in without knowing this - prejudice

Yes, I don't want to hijack either, but I find it troubling that so many people are now becoming anti-EU mostly because of immigration, and not really recognising all the benefits that come from EU membership.

I feel like the EU is becoming a scapegoat for a lot of things that the UK government is getting wrong. It's not the EU's fault for example that not enough schools have been built and NHS funding is being cut.

Immigrants pay more tax per head than British born
remember that when you try to restrict our arrival

"not enough schools built"
bilge
in the 1980's there was massive depopulation in the city centres (Ghost Town by the Specials summed it up)
Southampton closed and sold for flats its city centre Secondary school.
Now city centres are vibrant again (London's population is up over a million on the early 80's low) and those sold off schools are needed again.

NHS
Funding is NOT being cut. BUT too many managers recruit more like themselves and governments have this stupid idea that "competition" is good in healthcare.
FFS
I cut my leg. I go to the nearest A&E, I do not use a comparative table and drive an extra 100 miles.

The truth is that for an immigrant family that has two school age children and one SAHP the WOHP parent has to earn at least £50k per annum to pay enough tax and NI to cover the full cost of the benefits and public services the family receive,

That is why the UK cannot afford to allow uncontrolled immigration of unskilled workers from the EU or indeed rest of the world. Uncontrolled mass immigration undermines employment in low skill low pay sectors and just adds to the total cost of providing benefits and public services.

We just cant afford to take every person who want to live in the UK without demanding they contribute at least as much in financial terms as the services they use.

i spoke to a Polish person about this and she said that the UK is seen as unbelievably soft and generous in the way it hands out things like public services and benefits. Indeed she gave the simple example of paying your water bill. In Poland you just get cut off if you dont pay. Here you are allowed a minimal service even if you dont pay.

morebeta
however for a single health man living in a shared private bedsit, the tax he pays massively outweighs the impact on the services used until after a few years he brings his girlfriend over and she also works until they have kids.

For a UK national, by the time that are 18 they owe the state a FORTUNE in school and NHS costs.
Should you stop British people being able to call on the State to a greater value than their tax take?

Or just immigrants have to go through the cost / benefit analysis?

and immigrants like myself who went to private school so were supported by UK taxpayers and did not draw on the state funded school system : should we get some cash back?

Dreaming. I'm not just anti EU because of immigration but as others have noted because of the EU bureaucracy that's been created and because I think it is taking governance decisions away from the UK which seems a crazy way to be dictated...

Talkinpeace - "Should you stop British people being able to call on the State to a greater value than their tax take?"

No I dont think that - but on the other hand that is the underlying issue on many MN threads on benefits. It is at the heart of much of the current debate on capping/cutting benefits in the politics.

Surely better to limit benefits to immigrants first before cutting those to people who were born and live in the UK?

I also went to private school as do my children - but I dont expect cash back either.

What does capping/cutting benefits have to do with immigration?
Most immigrants are not entitled to the bulk of benefits.
and THE MOST expensive part of the social security budget is the State pension : which is not available to most immigrants.

THe biggest unfunded cost the government is facing relates to public sector pensions (particularly the unfunded schemes like teachers, NHS, MOD) : again, nothing to do with immigrants.

If all the immigrants left do you seriously think that the current indigenous unemployed would happily take on the work they do?

newgirl have you thought maybe they don't celebrate birthdays and a party is not the most appropriate thing to invite them too! lol

you say they can't speak ENglish so you think English emails are the best way to approach them lol?

Politically, the issue of benefits, immigration and unemployment are initimately linked in the minds of people who live in economically deprived areas.

It may be illogical but that is realpolitik of our current situation. It is what many people think and especially among older voters.

That is true.
People voted UKIP on Thursday because of their stance on immigration and the economy.
I have lots of dealings with County Councils.
Border policy and taxes are not normally under their remit!

It will be like the BNP councillors from a couple of years back : once the elected dorks find out how little they can actually do and how slowly it all moves they will drop out. And at the low key by elections will be replaced by many of the former incumbents.

People voted UKIP on Thursday because of their stance on immigration and the economy

I think it is more a protest vote against old etonians and a labour party with no policies.

people voted ukip because it's easier to blame "furriners" especially dark ones, than grapple with the disaster of monetarism and the "free" market.

anyone who uses private schools does benefit from the state. Who paid for the teacher training? the roads they use to get to the schools? the schools the teachers kids go to? the hospitals that keep the teachers well? ffs.Its all inter linked.

In Poland you just get cut off if you dont pay. Here you are allowed a minimal service even if you dont pay.
Then thank goodness we live in a civilised society.
As for your point about benefits, many immigrants are not entitled to them.

Yes..here there is a still a modicum of compassion left for those who cant afford water.

How dreadful

And, let's not forget, we fought against the nazis

^^
alongside brown people.

People all over the common wealth contributed to war effort. My grandfather risked his life working in a shell factory in South Africa.