to finally be able to say there has been too much immigration

[moogy1a]

Now that UKIP have made massive gains in local elections,conservatives stating that major changes need to be made and labour admit that they made a big mistake in having an almost open door policy can I finally say this in public without the hysterical accusations of being racist?

[Toadinthehole]

I think NCEA doesn't require pupils to take maths and English to 6th form any more , although it's something universities expect to see.

University degrees are also shorter. A New Zealand LLB with honours takes 4 1/2 years; in England only 3; in Scotland 4 (but they start a year earlier, which means they specialise earlier).

[slug]

It's not just the quality of the teaching Toadinthehole, it's also the breadth. The UK severely restricts students in the A level years. University degrees are also very prescriptive.

I used to horrify my students in the UK when I pointed out to them I studied 5 A levels. (and no, the UK ones are not harder than the NZ ones, I've taught both) There was also the requirement, at least when I went to school (old gimmer emoticon) to take English in the 6th form. I seem to remember my school also requiring maths at that level. Unlike the UK where you can specialise, this policy turns out science students who are capable of writing clearly and coherently and arts students who are also numerate.

[Toadinthehole]

That's obvious enough.

There is far more competition for teaching jobs in NZ and as a result the standard of teaching is higher. Furthermore, NZ teachers are assumed to know what they're doing, and so aren't micromanaged like in the UK. The quality of the local schools is the major reason we remain here, although I am worried about the our two DDs' employment prospects when they grow up.

However, as NZ is (winks at mirry2) also less sexist than the UK, perhaps that won't be a problem.

[slug]

NZ has about the same land area as the UK but only about 4.5 million in population. The problem NZ has with immigration is the internal market is so small that many of it's educated professionals have to emigrate to get a job. The brain drain is a massive problem there. They all turn up in the UK where the job market is just so much bigger.

It interesting though that a small country can manage to educate and skill students to a level that the UK seems unable to manage.

[Toadinthehole]

The meaning of what I said was perfectly clear, and if you regard it as lazy, then I regard you as rather preoccupied with semantics. I'm glad, however, that you aren't offended.

[mirry2]

Toadinthehole I am not offended in the least. I just think that calling a country racist is a lazy way of talking.

[Toadinthehole]

I'm comfortable with what I said, and I know what I'm talking about. If it offends you, that's too bad.

[mirry2]

Toadinthehole - you said that UK is racist-what you should have said is that some people in the UK are racist. We are not racist as a nation. You are free to say what you like about NZ being a racist country. I have no idea whether it is or not.

[Toadinthehole]

Mirry,

There is racism in every country. My comment shouldn't be taken as meaning that the UK is particularly racist - I don't think it is, comparatively speaking, but you will accept that the UK is not free of racism.

As for your second point, NZ is a village of four million people, cramped into a few urban centres. Given that its main export is foodstuffs, there are just as much concerns about demand on land as in the UK. It just manifests itself differently. I should add that in NZ pressure to conform is much greater than in the UK.

[mirry2]

Toadinthehole - I really don't beleive you can describe the UK as racist.
Out of interest, what is the population of NZ and the size of the country?

[Toadinthehole]

I suspect the problem is not actually the number of immigrants, but the UK's ability to control who comes in. I am an emigrant to NZ. I'd estimate that NZ is probably slightly less racist than the UK, but only slightly. However, the proportion of its population that is foreign-born is probably similar to Australia and far, far greater than the UK.

Generally speaking, Kiwis aren't fussed about immigration. This is probably because everyone knows that the NZ parliament has absolute control over the laws relating to immigration, with the unimportant exception of the UN refugee quota. People know that if it appears that too many immigrants are arriving, the laws can easily be tightened up.

This is in complete contrast to the UK, whose government has surrendered legal and political control of its borders to Brussels.

[Talkinpeace]

slug
Most employers now are too lazy to train people.
They seem to expect school leavers and graduates to be magically "ready" to work for them.
When actually companies should assume that all new recruits are a blank canvas, put in a training budget in exchange for lower wages in the first year and MAKE it work.

But hiring foreigners is easier
which (as a foreigner) suits me just fine

[slug]

Talkinpeace. That only works if British people have the skills and qualifications to do the jobs with higher wages.

In my current profession, which is quite small, the number of British people is quite small. It's difficult to work out why this is except I suspect part of the problem is the rigidity of the English education system which seems to preclude students gaining the range of skills necessary.

In my previous profession, the skills shortage was very apparent. Even 5 years after leaving and swearing I would never go back, I still get a couple of contacts a month from recruitment agencies or direct requests from employers. There simply aren't enough British people with the necessary skills.

[3MenAndMe]

That's kind o tread that gives me goose bumps and makes me doubt in big 'sisterhood' on MN...
I am foreigner,working for the NHS for the last 6 years(loved it,but bullying/harassment made it more difficult...and yes it was ethnicity related),raising my kids according to British standards and traditions and would not have it other way...Mixture of friends,mostly British as integration is the key,cannot imagine keeping away from this culture if I live here...It always seemed to be a duty to respect the culture whereever we lived and it was couple of European contries before the UK
So it is pure b**s to say that immigrants are living in separation/ghettos and do not integrate,taking jobs and benefits etc...
It makes me wonder what happen to this wonderful,tolerant country which I was enjoying as a kid(we used to come here for holidays and to this day British coast is my favourite destination....
Do not put everybody in one bag....it is really ignorant...

[Kneebeefjerky]

Talkinpeace by contrast it could be argued that if there was less immigration more British people would be in work as higher wages would make work a much more attractive option that welfare. Higher wages would also reduce the welfare bill in terms of tax credits.

So we would be looking at a similar amount of people in work, less benefits being paid out and higher wages = similar amounts of tax being paid. Less strain on public services = less tax needed.

[Lazyjaney]

I also don't see what is racist in pointing that immigration brings a net economic benefit to the UK which of course is no surprise given that many foreign-born people aren't entitled to anything off the state. Or is pointing out such facts not part of an "honest debate" that the racists say they are being denied?

There's nothing racist with saying that, nobody has said it is - but nor is it racist to dispute it, or seek to reduce the downsides.

But Wallison your attitude throughout this thread - "I'm right (in your case actually far left of the Labour position in fact) and anybody who disagrees with me is a racist" is ridiculous.

[inabeautifulplace]

"The issue, now belatedly admitted by the current Govermnent, is that it is one of the most accessible of the decent ones in Western Europe."

I thought healthcare was guaranteed if you had an EHIC card?

[Wallison]

I also don't see what is racist in pointing that immigration brings a net economic benefit to the UK which of course is no surprise given that many foreign-born people aren't entitled to anything off the state. Or is pointing out such facts not part of an "honest debate" that the racists say they are being denied?

Going back a bit, StoicStressed, as has already been noted, I used the term I did as being indicative of how racists think. I take your point that it's best not to use such terms at all though, in case someone doesn't realise that. However, I should imagine that such people as would not realise that and then go on to take offence have rather more pressing problems to attend to - such as the perennial question of how to find their arse with both hands.

[Lazyjaney]

"As pointed out previously, the benefits system in the UK is not the most attractive in the EU, neither is its healthcare the finest"

The issue, now belatedly admitted by the current Govermnent, is that it is one of the most accessible of the decent ones in Western Europe.

[Talkinpeace]

mirry
You and I appear to be at cross purposes.

Immigration and racism are not inextricably linked (despite what UKIP and the BNP would have one believe)
Immigrants have been an essential vibrant part of the UK economy for hundreds of years - the Vikings, Normans and Hugenots being notable documented groups.

Before I arrived, my family were last in the UK 400 years ago, so I am an immigrant, but bits of my historic bloodline trace back to Tunbridge Wells, so I'm not.

The point is that the definition of "enough" immigrants is subjective, liable to personal bias and dependent on macroeconomic variations.

[mirry2]

Talkingpeace -^why is it racist to point out the fact that more indigenous people claim benefits than immigrants?
why is it racist to point out that the tax bill of shits like Bob Diamond equate to those of around 1000 teachers ? ^

I don't know what you're on about

[Talkinpeace]

so in what way is what I say racist?

[mirry2]

Talkingpeace please carefully re read your post, and mine. Of course it isn't offensive to point these things out.

And I don't understand what point you are making in saying your family have graves all over Europe? You and millions others.

[inabeautifulplace]

Morebeta, from my experience it's not the benefits that entice people to come here but the availability of work. I can only speak about the people I know but they are generally well educated. To my mind people who are prepared to give up everything they know and love in order to work in the UK have something valuable to offer our country.

As pointed out previously, the benefits system in the UK is not the most attractive in the EU, neither is its healthcare the finest.

[Talkinpeace]

mirry
what race am I?
my family has graves all over Europe in the 1600's and then some of us moved overseas and later some of us moved back

why is it racist to point out the fact that more indigenous people claim benefits than immigrants?
why is it racist to point out that the tax bill of shits like Bob Diamond equate to those of around 1000 teachers ?