to finally be able to say there has been too much immigration

[moogy1a]

Now that UKIP have made massive gains in local elections,conservatives stating that major changes need to be made and labour admit that they made a big mistake in having an almost open door policy can I finally say this in public without the hysterical accusations of being racist?

I can see why the term upset you.
To be fair I think Wallinson intended it to be representation of the way the racists think and speak and not her own favoured term.

But....I do agree it is best not to use racist terms at all.

yeah newgirl the same could be said of our school. On any given morning after drop off you can find groups of Somalian parents and groups of Pakistani parents, all stood about chatting.

..because they are friends!!! and why not?! They share language, culture, religion. It is not an indication that they dont integrate...

Have you approached any of these ladies? Asked them how their kids are getting on? Do you know their childrens names? Have you asked any of them if they would like to come round for a cup of tea? or take the kids to the park with you after school? Have you invited the children round with reassurances that food will be vegetarian?

I imagine the reason that you havent managed to integrate with them, is because you are a xenophobe. You may think you hide it well but none of you do. It stinks

incidentally, how many foreigners are you comfortable with in a group? Can they stand in 2s or 3s? If they had a white british person in the group, could they then double the number of 'others'?

The schoolgate thing as a barometer is laughable really. There are dozens of threads on here about people trying to make friends and being ignored or not made to feel welcome etc. Race or nationality never gets mentioned. But I wouldn't judge society or a whole group by what I see happening at morning drop off. (or else we'd get the wrong impression about the British sense of fashion etc.)

seriously newgirl if there was a white mum in the playground who didnt want to talk to you would you say she is not integrated/not allowed? no you wouldnt. you are judging people differently based on race and ethnicity which is racism.

If you have some knowledge of the situation that you are not sharing then I am prepared to say I am wrong, but from what you say it just seems like they are not bothered to make friends at school gate like a lot of people

We need to target potential migrants who have skills are short of (e.g. Science, engineer, technology, entrepreneurship) and offer them full residency. Low skilled migrants should be offered temporary visas so that they cam be renewed or not as the economy grows and contracts.

I genuinely think most people in the UK haven't got a problem with immigrants as people but they just want the pace of immigration to be slowed to a manageable level and immigrants to be vetted before they come here to ensure they can make a contribution and pay their way.

What I don't understand is why people think these things aren't already happening.

All non-EU immigrants, which is half of immigration, are vetted to make sure they won't be a drain. They are either students or skilled workers coming in on the points system, or they are family members where the sponsor demonstrates he has enough money to support them.

EU immigrants are not vetted per se, but to receive benefits or sponsor non-EU they have to show they have been working, studying or looking for work for at least 3 months. There is not a lot you can do here short of dropping out of the EU.

So what exactly do people want to happen to drop the numbers further?

Students and skilled workers benefit the economy. Dropping out of the EU would be really drastic. And cutting back family migrants risks violating people's right to a family life -- already, you have people unable to bring their spouse and children to the UK, effectively forcing them to live in exile from their own country if they want to stay with their family.

So: if you want to cut immigration, how exactly do you want to do it? It's not simple.

If anyone is actually interested in breaking down barriers rather then just slagging of other people for wasting teachers time and stuff, I found what worked was a picnic in the park, inviting people saying we are all meeting up and bring a dish all welcome, tell your friends, and telling people from different groups to come, telling your kids to tell the other kids.

I hate this attitude that things should be done, but someone else needs to do it. If there are issues in your community be part of the solution!

I find it so hard to recognise all these stories of school gate segregation. At our school, I have never seen anything of the sort. Yes, you might sometimes see a group of Muslim mums talking to each other, or a group of White British mums doing the same, but you're equally likely to see a mixed group of mums (and dads) too, chatting, laughing, making arrangements for the kids. Our kids all play with each other, go to each other's houses, pester us to go to the park after school, invite each other to birthday parties etc. It's a very diverse school, but race/culture/religion just don't seem to create the barriers here that apparently exist elsewhere. I can't help but wonder why.

I

Sorry, that looks like I think being Muslim and being White British are mutually exclusive. I realise that they're not, but most of the Muslim families at our school are south Asian or from the Middle East. Apologies if I offended anyone!

Fanjo Thank you for your post and I am in no doubt at all about your genuine good intentions. But the point is - there IS no 'to be fair...' when someone/ANYONE uses terms like that.... As they ARE racist terms, full stop.

I agree WHOLLY with your observation that "it is best not to use racist terms at all".

I also agree with anyone and everyone who is disappointed that thread about immigration - no matter WHAT anyone's view's on that were, as clearly there will be many different POV's - has got hijacked by the 'race' card, with the actual issues/impacts/costs & benefits/whatever of number of immigrants and what that means now almost long forgotten. Which is tragic because every time THOSE issues do fail to be debated sensibly; get forgotten and lost via bringing race into it (whether on here, in Westminster, on the streets of any town); vile Farrage et all will be the SOLE beneficiaries of that..

jinsei if you see a mum that looks like she is isolated and doesn't speak English, what would you do?

Smile at her. Try talking to her. Whatever. But it's unlikely she would be ignored by anyone. We're a very friendly school! :)

We do have a couple of mums who don't speak much English, but we all manage to rub along. Sometimes it's easier to communicate through the kids. For example, one family doesn't have a car, so I have often arranged to take the children (and sometimes parents) to parties or functions by getting the children to interpret. It has resulted in some pretty confusing conversations in the car, but it's all fun!

I do think the UK is under strain and services are not growing/changing fast enough to support the growing population. The SE is jammed full.

I don't think we should belong to the EU and that services for the UK should be for people within the UK. A social welfare state only works when there is relatively closed borders. Stopping immigration from the EU would also stop the undercutting that happens in the construction and service sectors.

I still believe there should still be controlled immigration based on a country's need. I can here in 1998 and for 12 years paid taxes at 40% rate with no access to any public funds. In that time I paid for private dentist and GP. Only became British citizen in last few years. Fairly sure if I wanted access to public funds those would be limited anyway. Hardly a drain on the system!

When UK citizens emigrate to Australia, or more other places for that matter, there always seems to be a thriving ex-pat community.
That could be seen to be that the Brits are not integrating with the indegenious population.
Not sure exactly what my point is, but I thought that was worth mentioning.

I also wanted to add that a lot of people posting on here, like on Mumsnet in general, are very ideology-driven but not always thinking about the economic or practical ramifications of their beliefs.

People who write things like 'our doors should be open to everyone' and 'we are lucky to live here and want others to experience the same' or my favourite 'I am a child of the world... Blah blah blah' have not always thought through the practical realities of what these ideas put into place mean. Are you happy to see your salaries going down to even put with the global economy?

I see this all the time on MN: 'the govt needs to spend more on providing services and building schools..' With what exactly?? With what money? There are a lot if fantasists out there who just don't want to discuss economics or I'd they do their response is always: tax the corporate bastards!! Sophisticated thinking.

i already answered that, with the money they are using on fighting illegal wars in other countries

by not allowing MNCs like starbucks to get away with paying no tax.

by better use of the funds they have got.

I would be happy to see the end of capitalism.

Good points William
Still no one is coming forward and saying that they would like 10 or 30 million extra immigrants here so I can only presume that even they have a finite number they would like here.

I find it's the anti-immigration folks who aren't really thinking through the practical implications of their beliefs.

As I noted above: how do you want to reduce immigration?

Given that already you have to be a student, skilled worker or family member if you're non-EU, and you can't limit EU migration?

What's the answer?

And yes, of course everyone has a finite number in mind. No one is advocating an open door policy.

williaminajet but immigration may not have a negative impact on the economy- do you have evidence to show it doesn't have a positive impact?

www.economicshelp.org/blog/6399/economics/impact-of-immigration-on-uk-economy/

I doubt everyone wants to come to the Uk - even some british don't want to stay

dreaming: You can limit EU immigration. By leaving the EU.

I think that's why lots of people have started supporting UKIP.

See, I can understand that. If you want less immigration and are happy to leave the EU, then I think that's a logical argument. What I don't understand is people thinking you can drastically reduce immigration but not leave the EU.

But there are enormous costs to leaving the EU -- I personally think it would be a very bad idea.

Hang on then.
"And yes, of course everyone has a finite number in mind. No one is advocating an open door policy".
Then why are some people called racist on this issue, if they want a finite number?
[Though, since this is my first real foray into this issue, that question may be well and truly answered by now].