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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Is there ANY proven correlation between school uniform and performance?

572 replies

Hullygully · 02/05/2013 09:11

Any data (either way) anywhere?

OP posts:
knitknack · 02/05/2013 13:54

Individuals don't have the power to send a student home.

knitknack · 02/05/2013 13:55

Individual teachers, sorry.

knitknack · 02/05/2013 13:55

sadly you can't just weed out students who are 'unlikely to be much of a loss' - life would be blissful if you could! :D

Hullygully · 02/05/2013 13:58
OP posts:
Eeeeeowwwfftz · 02/05/2013 14:00

In the unlikely event that anyone actually wants to see the answer to the OP's original question, here it is. I haven't read the original articles. Yet.

AmberLeaf · 02/05/2013 14:04

I think you need to be a teacher to understand the HUGE power of the "do your top button up please" as an easy and calm way to settle a pupil with more challenging behaviour and thus be able to get on with the actual learning

Really?

Think you may have missed out the word trip somewhere in there.

Maryz · 02/05/2013 14:04

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ProbablyJustGas · 02/05/2013 14:07

I've never worn a school uniform in my life. Achieved excellent grades in middle school, high school and university. Was also an active member of the student body: school plays, school choir, field hockey and track team. Despite my native country's feral attitude towards the clothing of schoolchildren, I was very well behaved. So were the majority of kids at my school. Out of ~165 students in my class, only one did not graduate on time, and he was gutted that he didn't. Uniform != behavior.

There was a dress code. You were not allowed to dress like a tramp (short skirts, short-shorts, belly shirts). You could not wear t-shirts with swear words or sexual innuendos on them. Kids who violated this code were either sent home to change or at least made to turn their t-shirts inside out. So, it wasn't a complete free-for-all either. You can still have standards without making everyone dress exactly the same - that is how it actually works in the adult world, in many workplaces.

My 7 year-old stepdaughter wears a uniform for school. You would think this would cure her of her fashion hangups and premature vanity, but it does nothing of the sort. Despite the school's flexibility about these things, DSD insists she must wear the logo sweatshirt to be socially acceptable, it cannot be a cardigan from ASDA. All of her cardigans have "mysteriously" disappeared. The shirt must be a polo shirt - long-sleeved blouses for wintertime won't do, because one her friends laughed at her the day she wore one. It must be either trousers or a dress, but never a skirt, because the skirts we bought for her are "too long".

Meanwhile, DSD is a well behaved child, but she's not well behaved because we stuff her into a uniform five days a week. She's well behaved because we expect her to be well behaved!

You can see where I am on school uniforms. :-p

knitknack · 02/05/2013 14:13

Amberleaf: ahahahahaha! thank you!! hahahahahaha. brilliant.

Now I really must prepare for the weekend revision session I'm running in my own time to help students wipes tears

Blu · 02/05/2013 14:14

DS went to an 'Outstanding' primary in a non-leafy area of s London, which was truly impressive in it's ability to enable kids to behave well, apply themselves to learning and look after each other. Really lovely atmosphere, excellent results.

No uniform.

No uniform was normal, there was no big deal about it, the kids wore 'nromal' clothes, and made no attempt to dress comeptitively or as if they were going to a party - no special deal, just getting dressed. The girls generally wore jeans and tops, or skirts and leggings and tops, the boys wore whatever.

It was great - i loved not having to have specific uniform items ready and washed.

Now he is at a secondary which applies uniform rules very strictly. It's also fine. Excpet they are often boililng hot in summer and cold in winter, in observing the uniform rules.

mummytime · 02/05/2013 14:17

Dress code would be worse. Yes for sixth form, they can handle the freedom. But year 9/10's would push it to its limit, just as they do School Uniform. I should know, my school had "school dress", which was basically anything except Jeans is fine as long as it is blue. I like Blue but from 13 to 16 I did not wear blue ever, except Denim. And I was a goody goody swot.

BTW some people have argued that British fashion designers are so innovative because of school uniform. The idea that you had something so limited to rebel against and within which to express your individuality; leads to greater innovation.

But I would also be quite happy to send my kids to a good school without a uniform. Although I am relieved that we have it at primary as I find it far cheaper.

BTW the stricter Uniform does tend to mean lots of people are wearing second hand. We've got lots of hand me down £15+ skirts for example, and they will be passed on.

AmberLeaf · 02/05/2013 14:19

Knitknack you're very welcome!

Do pass that on though, I'm sure there are thousands of teachers in ESBD units all over the country that would find that gem helpful.

Just tell them to do their top buttons up

thankGodTheSunIsFinallyOut · 02/05/2013 14:24

Love school uniform, never goes out of fashion, cheap (buy two get one free almost every June at well-known retailer with ampersand in middle of name). Gets passed from child to child year after year and still takes a kicking. DD1 has sweats and cardigans with 3 previous owners which still can get passed to DD2.

Designer Oswald Boating says he loved his uniform "It's where I got my whole taste for the suit".

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/fashion/features/ozwald-boateng-cutting-edge-897323.html

and Vivienne Westwood customised her uniforms "As a teenager in the 1950s, she customised her school uniform to emulate the fashionable pencil skirt and made many of her own clothes".

www.vam.ac.uk/content/articles/v/vivienne-westwood-designs/

Can't imagine spending time customising a pink Hello Kitty shirt and leggings which my kids would choose to wear (and comes in at a similar price to sturdy uniform at afore-mentioned ampersand shop, although IMHO not nearly as well made).

Ooops but not sure about the statistics of achievement OP Blush

Hullygully · 02/05/2013 14:28

Thanks you Eeeeeeeeeeeee

OP posts:
DreamsTurnToGoldDust · 02/05/2013 14:29

Well Ozwald Boateng went to a private school so no nasty polyester there, and today you cant even keep your top button undone let alone customise your uniform like Vivienne Westwood, so we cant compare either to most state school uniforms.

TheSmallClanger · 02/05/2013 14:29

That is bollocks about "do your top button up" being a useful tool. It's the start of an argument, from which some students just learn a super-easy way to wind up teachers and derail what they need to do.

I used to teach in FE and tried to enforce wearing of protective clothing. Mostly they did, but sometimes, I wasn't going to waste the class's time and my energy on trying to stamp my authority on a bunch of hormonal 17yo boys. I just used to remind them that they'd get covered in shite and carry on.

thankGodTheSunIsFinallyOut · 02/05/2013 14:40

Under school uniform efficacy there are some vague pro and con arguments:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_uniform#Efficacy

I think these Americans are saying that the achievement is not better but the kids now look like they have come to school to learn as opposed to commit offences (this is California mind).

www.psmag.com/culture-society/no-uniform-solution-5609/

vess · 02/05/2013 14:48

I haven't read the whole thread, but DS goes to a non-uniform secondary and on the whole it works out a lot cheaper as I don't have to buy uniform plus normal clothes.
Interestingly, the boys quite like looking smart!

ConferencePear · 02/05/2013 14:52

I would like to see some research done in British schools. Most of what is quoted on this thread is from other countries.
From my own teaching experience in secondary schools I make the following observations.
In one school where I worked there was no uniform specified. In fact though all the kids wore jeans and the boys in particular didn't care if they were dirty.
Another school decided to introduce uniform. Everyone, the pupils, staffs and parents were consulted and came up with a very simple dress code which, except for a logo sweatshirt, could be bought anywhere. Those who wore ethnic dress fitted well within it. This was then presented to the governors and everyone just accepted it.
What a shame no-one thought of doing some research into whether or not it changed school performance. It was a good and improving school anyway.

cumfy · 02/05/2013 14:55

Yeah, some.

HamletsSister · 02/05/2013 14:59

Not actual quantitative data - no. But anecdotal evidence that it doesn't make much of a difference. When I arrived here (at my school) there was no uniform beyond them being asked not to show too much flesh or advertise alcohol (which also meant no to many football strips). A uniform, of sorts, was introduced: black trousers, skirt or shorts, black hoodie (school bought or your own plain black one) and a white t shirt or shirt.

Nothing has changed. The pupils are the same - the ones who pushed the boundaries before (t shirts with rude slogans - my personal favourite "I don't drink water. Fish fuck in it!") are similar to those who now wear a navy hoodie or whose white t shirt is permanently in the wash.

Results are the same. Behaviour is the same. Pupils are the same.

The only slight issue I have with it (and the rules are very, very lightly applied, if at all, by management) is that it creates bad feeling. As a parent, I am pissed off by the poor quality hoodies. My children don't see how black jeans make them better than ordinary ones. As a teacher, I spend more time nagging and cajoling than I did.

I came from a background of very, very strict uniform (school issued and free so everyone had the same and you handed it back and got more when you outgrew it). I always felt strongly in favour of uniform but now, not really.

I actually miss the pupils showing off what is in fashion. I miss their chance to be individuals without breaking rules (they now only have to wear a scarf, red t shirt etc to break the rules).

Childhood / teens are horribly short and I quite like the idea of them being given some freedom. My children wear it (they have to - I teach here) and I nag pupils but I do both out of a sense of duty rather than because I feel it does anything at all to improve results.

We have had pupils go on into all the professions. They cope, just as soldiers do, with a new "unform", just as they cope with moving into retail and wearing a uniform.

Would abolish it tomorrow were I Queen!

Fillyjonk75 · 02/05/2013 15:13

I used to be quite pro uniform, but there are so many countries doing better than the UK educationally who don't wear uniform that now I'm ambivalent about it.

burberryqueen · 02/05/2013 15:20

yesterday the art teacher made my daughter leave the class and remove the t shirt that she had on under her school shirt as it was 'not uniform'. When my daughter said she would like to leave it on as she was cold and her school shirt was see through (dd is 14) the teacher said she didnt care and to go and take it off.
I wonder how that enhanced my daughter's learning experience....
I wonder if the teacher is heartless or perverse....
What a silly waste of time money and energy the uniform is.
Last year there was a special assembly where the children were told that it had been scientifically proven that they would learn better if they all wore the same colour shoes.....i mean...wtf?

wonderingagain · 02/05/2013 15:49

It does nothing for academic achievement, it wastes teacher's time, it adds another layer of rules to be broken and create conflict, it doesn't keep children warm in winter, it doesn't keep them cool in summer, it is not flattering unless they plan to work in retail, it adds a thin veneer of respectability and equality that does not stand up to scrutiny.

Keep uniform for people who have a function in society - the emergency services, the doctors. But children are children - let them wear jeans FFS.

soupdragon My children have never lost their individuality through wearing uniform. How sad that you think yours have.

That's a bit nasty but I won't report it. Smile

SoupDragon · 02/05/2013 15:51

How is it nasty?