Is there ANY proven correlation between school uniform and performance?

[Hullygully]

Any data (either way) anywhere?

There are lots of good things about uniform IMO, but, I think some secondaries take the enforcement of it way too far.

Sending a pupil home because of one small aspect of the uniform being wrong is ridiculous and that does happen a lot in some schools.

I think it makes much more sense to have a pupil in school but in slightly incorrect uniform, than to have them sent home to change and miss lesson time to do so.

It is really petty and counter productive.

At my dc's school the sixth form has not had a uniform, now they plan to make them wear "business suits" (the years below have a uniform).

This is the set up at my DDs school. Until four or five years ago the Sixth Form were allowed to wear what they liked (within reason) while the rest of the school had to observe a strict uniform policy. They then changed so that the Sixth had to wear "business dress". But, interestingly enough, it was the sixth-formers themselves who voted for the change.

My DD is in lower sixth and as far as I can tell there is no great resentment to the rule. In fact the way it is presented to them is that they have to observe the same dress code as the teachers.

I'm afraid that I equate this business of uniform stifling individuality with "spirited" children, and Islington Intolerances- "Oh Jocasta, darling- please don't draw on seeker's white walls- yes, I know that they boring and you only wanted to make them prettier for seeker- you are such a kind girl. I'm sorry, seeker, she was at a party today and ate some Haribo. the sugar always makes her a little over excited..."

'If you think children need to wear their own clothes to express individuality, then you are teaching them that what matters is how they look.'

One could argue exactly the same point regarding the enforcement of uniform.

The argument about school uniform making "poor kids" (that's all relative) not stand out is utter BS. Teenagers are ruthless and can spot a handed down "schoolwear" skirt above an M&S office skirt at ten paces. That doesn't even take into account shoes, bags, hair accessories and how these are worn.

I dont think my DCs are made more or less individual by uniform. What I do think is that a polyester uniform is the least appropriate clothing for teenagers.

IME uniform is a distraction for the school. My DCs' school wastes enormous amounts of time on enforcing the uniform. It is currently competing for the 'worst school in Britain' award. More time spent on managing the school effectively and less on worrying about the shade of socks worn by the students would be the way to go.

Why don't any of the uniform defenders address the fact that most countries don't have school uniforms and yet in many cases have educational outcomes far superior to those of the UK (the Nordic countries spring to mind.)

The sixth form business dress thing is even more depressing - as if working in an office is all that we expect teenagers to aspire to. My local sixth form college has no uniform or even dress code and still manages to send dozens to Oxbridge every year.

I agree with both Worry and edwina here. Most countries manage fine without school uniforms, including the USA and most of continental Europe. And I'm sure the best teachers aren't the ones who want to spend any time at all obsessing over jumpers and shoes.

Why do schools want children under the age of 11 to all look the same?

Interestingly, I find it infinitely easier to identify my child(ren) in amongst a group of uniformed children than it is when they have mufti day. Possibly because it makes you focus on the child and not whatever they happen to be wearing. I am not alone in finding this amongst the parents are the school gates. My child will never look the same as another just because she happens to be wearing the same uniform.

Wanting anyone to lose their individuality is the first step to distancing yourself from their humanity.

My children have never lost their individuality through wearing uniform. How sad that you think yours have.

but not among the under 11s, there it is dehumanising

Only a twat would "dehumanise" a child (or adult) on the basis of what they are wearing and they are likely to be the kind of person who does this regardless.

Our school uniform is inexpensive. You can buy from all major supermarkets or get the logo'ed stuff from M&S (which isn't that much dearer than Asda if you don't get the logo'ed stuff, but DS is only six and I don't know how long that will last). Logo'ed stuff is optional. Uniform allows shirts or polos, sweaters that can be sweatshirts or v necked etc. I would be vvvv militant if it was otherwise. Fortunately there are a lot of opinionated and articulate mouthy cows ladies locally so the HT picks her battles.

You could argue that putting on a particular set of clothing cues your mind to say that eg I am wearing school uniform, it is a learning day. Flylady uses the same principle. Is the technical term psychodrama?

I think it would be hard to find hard evidence because compulsory uniform usually comes bundled up with other stuff that will bring up school grades. There are just so many variables - social background of catchment, local expectations, poor leadership within school etc

Horrid Henry does not wear school uniform.

Why don't any of the uniform defenders address the fact that most countries don't have school uniforms and yet in many cases have educational outcomes far superior to those of the UK (the Nordic countries spring to mind.)

Because I am not defending it on the basis of academic outcome.

Of course, uniform is not the only difference between the UK education system and that of other countries so trying to make an kind of comparison based on what the pupils wear is rather pointless.

DD1 got very irate that her 6th form dress guidelines banned strappy tops, but teachers were allowed to wear them. Also that boys couldn't wear shorts, but girls could (over tights or leggings). And when three quarter length trousers became long shorts.

I did like the "no cleavages of either kind" part though .

I think you need to be a teacher to understand the HUGE power of the "do your top button up please" as an easy and calm way to settle a pupil with more challenging behaviour and thus be able to get on with the actual learning...

Until you've taken 70 year sevens out on a field trip in late november dressed only in thin leggings, jelly shoes and a vest top... and for sixth formers, until you've seen your seventh pair of knickers of a morning because for some girls 'skirt' means 'belt' you don't really appreciate the joy of a business suit with knee length skirt!

Trust me, teachers have SO much else to be dealing with/thinking about -and Gove is removing any sense of authority/professionalism from us as it is. Please let us continue to have sensibly dressed children.

Whats Mufti stand for? Keep hearing it on here and although I know its for own clothes day but what does Mufti mean? (Im sure in my day it meant fanjo)

SofaKing's post sounds like my experience at school. Good attendance, well-behaved, on sports team, student council and straight As but my head of year only ever spoke to me to tell me to tuck my shirt in, threaten me with suspension over blue streak in hair, etc. I used to find it sad that she got so angry about something so petty. Our uniform was horrid, collar and tie, blazer that you weren't allowed to take off unless somebody fainted, etc., all at bog standard comp. Really uncomfortable especially once girls had started to 'develop' and always too hot or too cold!

Our local secondary wear black trousers, white shirt with tie and navy jumper - it looks AWFUL. Skirts/shorts are not allowed and they are very funny about shirts (blouses are not allowed, bizarrely - how can they tell?) so any arguments about looking smart go out the window here.
Have you seen a size 16 woman stuffed into a collar and tie with her SHIRT tucked into a pair of trousers at your place of work lately?
No, of course you haven't, because it's uncomfortable and doesn't look nice. Ties are stupid, my DP works in a govt organisation and never wears a tie even if he's meeting ministers. He wears smart shirts/trousers/shoes/jumper but not a tie.

I have no problem with the primary uniforms near us - polo top or shirt/blouse with sweatshirt/cardi in school colour or with logo and grey trousers/shorts/pinafore/skirt. They also allow trainers or boots to be worn which I think is great. The kids look smart but they're not being restricted by collars or sodding blazers.

BTW where I work there is a goth senior manager, she wears black lacy tops under black suits and black pointy boots, and there is a Rastafarian man in finance who just ties his dreads back and looks perfectly smart in his trousers/shirt/jumper, no reason why you can't be a bit 'yourself'!

While i can fully understand how some parents feel especially over primary children i wish my dd's sixth form would do uniform. It is costing far more to have her in her own clothes. You need lots of changes or you get 'oh you're in that again' you need seasonal and it all adds up. Until my eldest started the sixth form i didn't realise how much i saved because they were in a good hard wearing uniform, my eldest really missed her school blazer too or at least the big pockets.

I found one thing interesting someone commented that wearing uniform improves attendance but as one local school keeps saying attendance affects results so if uniform means higher attendance then results will improve

knitknack but why would year 7s or 6th formers dress like that? Our sixth formers have no uniform or dress code, they are largely in jeans and t-shirts, shorts in summer. There are a handful of goths and punks. Basically they look like university students.

When I was 14 or so school uniform was evil and I did everything I could to wear it individually which included rolling up the waistband of my skirt, turning the blazer inside out and putting the tie around my middle as a belt, "yes but Miss I AM wearing it".
Now that I am old and have a dd I thank the heavens for her uniform. I couldn't afford to keep her in the many outfits she would want plus the drama of "Where are my leggings? what do you mean they are in the wash, nooo !!" every morning at 7.30 would turn my hair greyer than it is already.

School uniforms are brilliant. I went through school, primary and secondary, without a uniform (not in this country) and stressed out about what other kids would say (we were poor) and the fact that my clothes were home made and/or hand me downs, or from the second hand shop. Every bloody day I worried about it. My mum insisting that I'd wear the same trousers for a full week and the kids laughing at me, Honestly, I love school uniforms, I think that children's personalities shine through, I have no concern at all about loosing sense of identity. And they are not expensive at our school. Basic grey trousers, white shirt, navy jumper, black shoes. I don't know and don't care if it has any impact on attendence or on achievement. I do care that they are lot less stressful for children and I don't need any statistical data to back me up.

I support a reasonably priced uniform for schools (not colleges).

However, school dress code is not just about the clothes. At both the primary and senior school my DC went to, they were very strict about hairstyles and shoes. No coloured hair, not even the tiniest logo on a shoe.

Personally, I think that is taking things a little too far. Why should it matter if a pupil has a red tint put on her hair?

edwin I don't understand your question? (not being silly, I genuinely don't!) The examples I gave were things that regularly happen to me as a teacher. You'd be amazing how some parents dress their children when it's non-uniform day, or a trip... and I imagine they have no control over how their year 12/13 daughters dress...

So.................

NO proof then.

Hmmmm.

knitknack

You can have a dress code without it having to be a suit.

You can hully, you can. Have you taught teenagers?

Not in a school.

Send them home if they are dressed inappropriately. Either they will get fed up with it, their parents will and will enforce sensible dress, or they won't turn up again and they are unlikely to be much loss.