to think it's not terribly helpful to keep referring to parents who haven't MMR'd as "whack jobs"...

[MsGillis]

..or morons, or unfit parents, or up there with people who drink and drive?

I appreciate that people have very strong feelings around the subject, but I think that we need to understand that there are a significant number of parents who didn't/haven't vaccinated, not because they are crystal waving nutjobs, but because they are actually scared shitless and paralysed into indecision?

Surely there are ways and means to communicate information, and arrogantly shouting about how one person is right and anyone who disagrees is all kinds of nobhead is not going to be conducive in opening up reasonable dialogue?

Actually OP, I started reading this thread thinking that those terms were unhelpful - and have finished it thinking that they are perfectly apt.

Call me a NIMBY, but I hope that Waynetta's family doesn't live anywhere near mine!

I find the attitude that "oh it only kills those with underlying health conditions" pretty unpalatable. Not only is it not true, it also has a yucky whiff of eugenics about it.

THIS is why mass vaccination is important. Anti-vaccination parents deserve vitriol. I don't want to go back to the 19th century and its childhood mortality rates - anyone who does can go and live on a very small island on their own a looooong way away from anyone else.

I think you're right, it's not helpful.

Though I can understand (though not agree) why that language might be used. I've just read a debate, mostly anti-vaccs people (only today, not MN) where conspiracy theories abound. It's actually really quite unsettling. I'd like to hear some less extreme views on the subject.

There have been anti-vaxxers as long as there have been vaccines

"Religious arguments against inoculation were advanced even before the work of Edward Jenner; for example, in a 1722 sermon entitled "The Dangerous and Sinful Practice of Inoculation" the English theologian Rev. Edmund Massey argued that diseases are sent by God to punish sin and that any attempt to prevent smallpox via inoculation is a "diabolical operation".[8] Some anti-vaccinationists still base their stance against vaccination with reference to their religious beliefs."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_controversies

I think it's obvious why Waynetta is anti-vaccine - she and her brother had bad reactions to the MMR.

People form the opinions they do based upon their own life experience (whether it's a bad reaction to a vaccine or you've seen someone damaged by an illness) and I think calling her a troll is not on.

Long term lurker here...

survival of the fittest is a fact. Nobody can disprove or deny it and we NEED to come into contact with disease NATURALLY to stimulate our immunity

I don't think I have ever read anything on MN that has filled me with rage so much. Obnoxious and ignorant. Makes me really angry.

What LazyJaney said.
I came on here expecting to read cogent anti-vaccination arguments from people working in the field who really know their stuff. But in a couple if cases (not all), what I am reading is astonishing levels of selfishness and delusion. I don't think people should be labelled "whack jobs" without real cause and if people can make a decent argument for not immunising their children against preventable but deadly diseases then I am willing to listen but so far nothing I have read here from the anti vac camp has been anything but mumbo jumbo.

There is no proof whatsoever that either waynetta or her brother suffered due to the vaccine. That's merely her opinion and unsupported by any evidence other than her own anecdotal. I don't think it's on that my child is at risk despite being vaccinated.

Really labtest? How on earth would you know what proof there was?

Arrogant posts like yours don't help

'I find the attitude that "oh it only kills those with underlying health conditions" pretty unpalatable. Not only is it not true, it also has a yucky whiff of eugenics about it.'

Well, that argument also applies to when people say 'The number of children who are vaccine damaged is tiny' and who imply collateral damage is ok for the greater good.

Hopefully most vaccinated children are not at risk from catching the disease. The vaccines should generally actually work...

There's no proof that ANYONE suffered because of the MMR vaccine, is there? So how could there be proof that a particular peter and her brother had suffered?

Well Waynetta demonstrates, that as a former HCP, she doesn't understand the phrase Survival of the Fittest, nor does she understand about incubation periods.

Oh dear

Jacquesle - a child in Italy's family has just been awarded compensation due to damage from the MMR.

To say that vaccine danage is non-existant is frankly, ridiculous and insulting.

Peter?? I meant poster.

damage*

Lottie -- in the wake of the Andrew Wakefield debacle a lot of testing was done to evaluate his alleged results. So far, the overwhelming indications are that no, there is no link between autism and MMR. It's not just an opinion.

I'm sure someone will come along and tell me, that the stats are wrong and that big pharma and trying to con us all from us but.....given that the risk of being vaccine damaged is less than the risk of being severely harmed by one of illnesses, I would always veer towards vaccination where possible.

She said her brother has autism caused by mmr. The link has never been proven. As I said previously my child had the mmr but she has been treated for leukaemia since the age of four and is no longer protected by it.

People who say the number of vaccine damaged children is tiny have usually put their money where their mouth is and vaccinated their children. For their own good, and the greater good.

I don't think all anti-vaxers are all whackos or whatever. That would be illogical and based on a very small sample.

Ironic really

I do not count the Italian case as evidence at all. It goes against all medical consensus on MMR and autism, as supported by robust evidence against any possible link.

I think they should hold a conference for Non Vaxxers - in Swansea. I wonder how many would go :D

(Hell, I'd sponsor a few thinking about it...)