to think it's not terribly helpful to keep referring to parents who haven't MMR'd as "whack jobs"...

[MsGillis]

..or morons, or unfit parents, or up there with people who drink and drive?

I appreciate that people have very strong feelings around the subject, but I think that we need to understand that there are a significant number of parents who didn't/haven't vaccinated, not because they are crystal waving nutjobs, but because they are actually scared shitless and paralysed into indecision?

Surely there are ways and means to communicate information, and arrogantly shouting about how one person is right and anyone who disagrees is all kinds of nobhead is not going to be conducive in opening up reasonable dialogue?

[lottieandmia]

Why have people been awarded compensation in both the US and Italy then mathanxiety? People were damaged by vaccines and compensated for it long before AW came along.

Which is not to say that I don't think vaccination is generally a good thing.

But I do think that the outbreak we have now is the fault of the government rather than people who are scared to vaccinate, because of situations like Tony Blair telling everyone to have the MMR, then later we find out his son hasn't had it he's had singles! No wonder people don't trust the official line. I also know a GP personally who gave her son singles but I bet she isn't allowed to recommend them to her patients...

[LouiseSmith]

I think this slamming mums with poorly children says more about the people writing the comments than, the parents of the children who were not vaccinated.

Drs said the the MMR jabs could cause autism, some parents listened. Some didn't. People made the choice at the time based on the information they had, I think these parents have suffered enough don't you.

[Fecklessdizzy]

If there was a link you would expect a massive spike in autism cases following the introduction of the MMR. There wasn't. QED.

[lottieandmia]

'People who say the number of vaccine damaged children is tiny have usually put their money where their mouth is and vaccinated their children. For their own good, and the greater good.'

Nobody would have their child vaccinated if they believed they could be damaged as a result.

[mathanxiety]

You can't treat what happens in a courtroom as evidence that there is bad science or good science involved in vaccines. For every court that has made an award there is another that has denied one. What happens in courts is irrelevant.

[lottieandmia]

'If there was a link you would expect a massive spike in autism cases following the introduction of the MMR. There wasn't. QED.'

No, Feckless because the number of children affected is and was small. Nobody has ever said otherwise to my knowledge.

[WidowWadman]

I don't deny that vaccine damage exists. However adverse effects to vaccines are much much rarer than the adverse effects of the wild virus.

The Italian court case did not prove anything but that a judge can make bad decisions based on bad evidence.

[JacqueslePeacock]

I agree, that at the time there were valid reasons for people to think MMR vaccines mint not be a good idea. Now though, with the benefit of hindsight, I think people (especially HCPs) who still oppose the vaccination are a bit dim (maybe not whack jobs but I do like the term).

The Italian case was genuinely a case of one judge's opinion, not evidence. I can see no reasonable grounds for that judge's conclusion. The basis appears to be simply that there was a correlation between the time of vaccination and the onset of autism and that they could find no reason for the onset of autism. This apparently led the judge to conclude that the MMR vaccination was linked. By contrast, the evidence that there is no link between MMR and autism seems to be abundant.

[JamieandtheMagicTorch]

There would be a large increase, not a large number, lottie

[mathanxiety]

Why have people been awarded compensation in both the US and Italy then mathanxiety? People were damaged by vaccines and compensated for it long before AW came along.

Why was an old lady compensated when she spilled hot coffee into her lap at a McDonalds drivethrough? Because there are hotshot lawyers who take cases on spec and get a percentage of the judgement. In the case of class action suits in the US the payoff to the lawyers can put whole families through university, buy yachts, make a lawyer seriously rich.

The law operates on a completely different footing from science.

There is a separate compensation fund operating in the US for families whose children have suffered seizures, brain injury, etc., after vaccination.

Again, autism/MMR is a separate matter entirely.

[Fecklessdizzy]

Even if the number affected was tiny compared to the number vacinated there would be a noticable increase once the vacination was offered to everyone. There wasn't.

[gfrnn]

Parents who refuse to vaccinate are risking their children's and my children's health and lives. We recently had a very anxious week after our four month old was exposed to another child who later developed measles and spent several days in hospital as a result.

Refusal to vaccinate is child endangerment. Measles has been eradicated from Australia and several other countries (officially confirmed by WHO) because they make vaccination a compulsory pre-condition for school entry.

Whack job seems too kind to me. Vaccine refusers are selfish, antisocial and deserve our contempt.

[noblegiraffe]

Lottie, Wakefield tried to make exactly that argument, that there was a massive increase in autism cases following introduction of the MMR.

He was, of course, incorrect. Autism cases continued to increase in Japan despite them withdrawing the MMR.

[lottieandmia]

I don't see how anyone on this forum who was not involved in the case itself would be in a position to know better than the judge what actually happened.

I'm sure the parents clearly don't know anything about their child either - they must be idiots, eh?

[crashdoll]

"Nobody would have their child vaccinated if they believed they could be damaged as a result."

Don't be ridiculous. People take risks with their children everyday, everytime they put their child in the car, they are taking a risk. A child is more likely to be injured in an RTC than by a vaccine.

[BobblyGussets]

I've worked out what kind of "HCP" Waynetta is

Leaves the room to get some more

[Purplefurrydice]

My mother was advised not to get me vaccinated against measles 30 years ago as my uncle was epileptic. Please remember that some people cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons.

[JamieandtheMagicTorch]

Purple


Yes, and that is why I don't think all antivaxers are wrong

[lottieandmia]

crashdoll - for most people vaccination is safe but for a few people the effects are devastating. Perhaps if you had experienced that yourself you might have a bit more empathy with parents who are when all said and done trying to protect their children.

[MrsHoarder]

"Nobody would have their child vaccinated if they believed they could be damaged as a result."

I am aware there is a small risk that DS could be damaged by a vaccine. But I would feel much worse in taking the far larger risk that he could be damaged by the actual illnesses. Like many parents after vaccinations I watched him like a hawk and fretted that he might be unwell, but did so confident that we were doing the thing that would be best for his long term health.

[BobblyGussets]

I don't think anyone has an argument with you Purple, or those who do have medical reasons.
It is a shame that we can't all protect you and those who can't be vaccinated for valid medical reasons by our herd immunity though.

I don't know about whack jobs, but I don't have alot of time for those fuckwits who think they can correctly interpret the data from a large scale, randomized clinical trial and come up with a link to autism.

"Survival of the fittest"? I hope those spouting that are emotionally robust enough to shrug and carry on, if one of their children dies from a preventable disease.

[BobblyGussets]

Does anyone else reckon Waynetta is/was a homeopath?

[shouldkeepquiet]

I want to get my children vaccinated but my wife is 100% against it. It always causes rows. I said on monday i think we need to think about it again as they are big and strong now (11and 7) not babies and will be fine. She said if i take them to get done she will divorce me on the spot - and she meant it. Didn't talk to me again for two days for daring to bring it up. What the hell should i do now?

[Sallystyle]

I don't think whack jobs is strong enough for the selfish and ignorant people who do not vax their children (those with medical issues excluded, obviously)

[lottieandmia]

That is a hard situation shouldkeepquiet, when you cannot agree. I feel for you, I really do.