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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To expect a mother to teach her child to stop being a little shit

278 replies

Loopyhasanotherbean · 19/04/2013 21:07

We go to a toddler group and there is one child who attends who persistently gives an evil stare to other children before running at them and pushing them over. This has resulted in tears from the other children almost every week for months on end. He is 2 and is doing this on purpose and the others are too nice and kind to retaliate, not that we would want them to really. He also snatches whatever toy he wants from any other child or baby, using whatever force necessary to get his own way. None of the other children do anything to provoke this, they are all gentle well behaved toddlers and getting very upset and not knowing what they have done wrong to mean they get hurt.

She never apologises on his behalf and he won't say sorry (he isn't at all sorry). Are we all being unreasonable to expect her to start disciplining him, taking responsibility for his behaviour and teaching him how to behave towards the other children?? We don't know what to do, but I am not sure I can bite my tongue much longer. She is as far as I know a nice woman, but she does not tell him off and he doesn't go to nursery do there is no one else to discipline him....

OP posts:
Snazzynewyear · 20/04/2013 20:50

ToysRLuv I think you're jumping way ahead there and projecting a load of stuff onto the OP. There is nothing to say that she wants the child to leave the group - in fact if she does, then she's got a funny way of showing it since she has done nothing in response to his behaviour.

And with regard to " when and where, if at all, should the mum socialize her dc and have "mum-chat time" herself?" - she can socialise him right there, since part of socialising is intervening when your child is behaving badly and making them understand that. Once she's done that, then she can enjoy mum-chat-time - although it sounds to me like that's what she's doing at the moment at the expense of socialising her child.

ToysRLuv · 20/04/2013 20:57

Fair enough, Carpe, but I have a very hard time believing that this mum actually does nothing/thinks nothing of the bad behaviour. If she really wants to do nothing about it, because of some twisted/misunderstood philosophy then, yes, sod her and her child. This is highly unlikely, though. Or maybe I live in the wrong area to have ever seen it (too naice? But I though those philosophies, supposedly, are for well off "lentil weavers" Oh..nevermind). Op, do what you please. You will anyway.

Smudging · 20/04/2013 20:57

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ToysRLuv · 20/04/2013 21:08

Doesn't sound like anyone's really talking to this mum, though. They are just passive aggressively (possibly unconsciously) trying to drive her out of the group (I guess that's what all the "we" stuff us about). If they wanted her to stay they would engage more, but I understand how it is.

It's correct that I'm only trying to guess at the full picture (none of us have it) from what it sounds like to me. And, of course we will all look at this op through the lenses of our own experiences. The op will have written it through her own lenses as well. I'm prepared for the op to correct me if I'm wrong.

grovel · 20/04/2013 21:23

OP, I'm on your side 100%. If you take a child to a toddler group you've got responsibility for how your child affects the enjoyment of other children. It's that simple.

clicketyclick66 · 20/04/2013 21:36

My ds was just like the little boy in the OP. I brought him to parent and toddler group at 18 months, I stayed right beside him but within 15 minutes he tried to hit a little girl! Straightaway, I brought him home.

9 months later, I took him again and this time he happily played along with the other children and had gone past the stage of hurting other children. It's amazing, but they can change in a short length of time.

No matter what I did, I couldn't stop him from hitting other children and he was so unpredictable so I just didn't allow the situation to occur by not bringing him anywhere.

I'm sure that little boy in the OP will become more sociable very soon, but in the meantime his mother should be keeping a close eye on him and remove him from the place as soon as he hurts a child.

AmIthatSpringy · 20/04/2013 21:44

mrsjay Just what I was thinking

Was imagining him plotting to rule the world and calling his mother a vile woman Grin

Froggy2013 · 20/04/2013 21:51

YANBU. However, kids are hard to control at 2! Mother should at least say sorry though - if she doesn't = she doesn't care = she is BVU!

CarpeVinum · 20/04/2013 21:51

I have a very hard time believing that this mum actually does nothing/thinks nothing of the bad behaviour

Like "there is no such thing as a two year who can do an evil stare and show every sign of hurting, becuase the hurting is the intent" the fact that something is outside of your own experience does not make it non-existable.

google Taking Children Seriously, see also Radical Unschooling, those are just two of very many theories where some (not all, some parents and kids do very well and turn out lovely on this sort of parenting stratagy cos it suits their temperaments and the parents do it well) practitioners take avoidance of "coercing" their child to the point of no action and reaction regardless of what they are doing. I've even had a real live actually in my living room person tell me that it is less harmful to let children have their teeth rot (natural consequence that child can take on board, or not, if desired) than it is to insist on teeth brushing. If somebody is prepared to allow their own child to rot their teeth or refuse life saving medicine, then is does sort of explain why another kid getting clumped doesn't really register as a big deal.

People who believe they will damage or limit (in a bad way) their child if they so much as have an expectation (as in have a thought in their head, not actually verbalise it) in terms of behaviour, exist.

For them the idea of twitching when their kid does something unsociable, let alone intervening, just wouldn't be considered suitable, desirable or helpful.

I don't think fuck her to the mum. I'd rather hope she isn't the type to rationalise and reframe the cat's bums mouths and rejection they are going to keep coming up against as "persecution of the free thinkers by the sheeple who sausage factory their children into mindless automatons, they are just JEALOUS! and I make them feel inadequate in comparison, so they are nasty to me cos they have ishooos" cos then there is the possibility that she'll get less sure of the believed perfection of the style and start to use parenting theories as tools instead of chains. In which case she and the kid might have a better time of it in the longer term. As will the people around them.

With any luck she might not be in that deep and it won't be so much an adopted philosophy, and more of a sentiment or sensation where she can't bear to upset him by telling him off, so has rejected reacting to behaviour as a strategy to avoid having to be "unkind". I think that might be easier to step back from than a sense of identity that has become entwined with a parenting theory. Especially if it's one that came with promises of fabby outcomes "if you just trust your kid" and praise for being clever and special enough to pick it.

I give the OP credit for hanging on in there a year without exploding with repressed frustration, pissed offness and end-of-tetheritus. If my son (thankfully much older than pre school age) hadn't turned around as we left our "special interest" group muttering "I don't want to come back, please don't make me" I reckon I would have got to the six week mark max before coming here and spluttering wildly in enraged, expletive and hyperbole infested incoherence. And then I would have descended into utter atomised rage further down the thread as you all accused me of being horrible and utterly unreasonable. Grin

GogoGobo · 20/04/2013 21:54

OP Why don't you offer to give her some parenting lessons?

ToysRLuv · 20/04/2013 22:04

: I know there might be people like that out there, even if I have not encountered them personally. Just saying it's unlikely. It's not psychologically normal behaviour to ignore human suffering (as an adult - not as a toddler), but then it becomes also a discussion about mental health..

ToysRLuv · 20/04/2013 22:06

That beginning was meant to be "Carpe:" stupid Kindle deleted the beginning.. a nightmare to write on this piece of crap.

propertyNIGHTmareBEFOREXMAS · 20/04/2013 22:07

Yanbu. I'd have said something to the mother by now.

CarpeVinum · 20/04/2013 22:20

Just saying it's unlikely. It's not psychologically normal behaviour to ignore human suffering (as an adult - not as a toddler), but then it becomes also a discussion about mental health

That's true. It's not normal if you see getting hit as worse than the pain of being told off, or told "no, don't", or being stopped.

If you truely believe that either...

The damage of being clumped by another kid is insignificant compared to the tremedous and possibly undoable damage of having your behavoir overtly or covertly corrected, limited or stopped..

or

You overvalue avoiding your own pain at causing your child upset by telling them off (or making stop doing something, or pointing out that they are doing something unacceptable) and make that personal pain avoidance a priority..

then, it makes more sense to you to let the lesser damage (a clump or a shove to another kid) slide, to avoid incurring the greater damage.

Do you see what I mean ? There is a logic to it if you see things through an alternative lens.

As for well or not, that'd take a psych consult or nine in the flesh with a qualified professional to work out.

CarpeVinum · 20/04/2013 22:22

a nightmare to write on this piece of crap

An iPad is no picnic either. My poor spellecheker is close to a nervpus breakdown.

level3at6months · 20/04/2013 22:27

It's hard to see it happening to your DC but you're going to have to be proactive now about speaking to the mum AND develop a thick skin because there will always be a child in your child's group/class like this and you won't like it. In this situation, it may be that Mum does nothing about it (which could be for reasons not apparent to you but more complicated than you could imagine). In the future, it could be anything - lack of boundaries, behavioural difficulties, learning difficulties... lots of reasons which will not be apparent or explained to you and you're going to have to learn to be tolerant and teach our child to be tolerant too. I am sympathetic, it's horrible seeing your child upset but others just aren't as lucky as you are. Put yourself in that mum's shoes - what would help you?

ToysRLuv · 20/04/2013 22:45

I understand, and if that's how this mum really is, it certainly doesn't sound normal or very well to me (I do have some psych credentials). I have no easy answers for this. Nothing ever is as clear cut as it seems.

No, the Kindle is the worst. Deletes and adds letters in random locations willy nilly. Aargh! I want my laptop baaaaack dh!

cory · 20/04/2013 22:53

Loopyhasanotherbean Fri 19-Apr-13 23:08:01
"And i do not intend to sound smug, motherhood is dammed hard work, but I have taught my child how to behave and am proud of him and nothing will change that."

:

pre-teen hormones, pre-teen hormones

Manyofhorror3 · 20/04/2013 22:58

I have a funny, charming, thoughtful and kind friend. And she has one child, and believes body and soul in TCS. It's extraordinary to see in action, and impossible to reason with. Her cold is the same age as one of mine but despite this I've had to make the decision to either see her without the children, or not see her at all. Maybe my friend isn't doing it properly, but it seems to me to be a philosophy underwritten with a subtext of "my child is infinitely more important than yours."

Manyofhorror3 · 20/04/2013 22:59

Child, not "cold"

ProphetOfDoom · 20/04/2013 23:21

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CarpeVinum · 20/04/2013 23:23

Maybe my friend isn't doing it properly

All the parents who claim their children are a joy are doing it right.

All the parents who complain/worry/admit that actually their child isn't turning out such a delight or doing so well...are doing it wrong. If they followed the philosophy to the letter verbally and physically, then it will be down to those pesky "expectations" that are lurking in their head and mind reading children.

Doing it wrong is easy to diagnose. Becuase if the child isn't the joy promised on the tin, the parents must be doing it wrong, cos the method is fail safe. And works for everybody. All of the time. As long as they do it properly.

I think the first rule to avoid a bit of a pickle is to ask yourself regularly "is this a good fit for my child? Is it a good fit for me ?"

If you are not sure, look for retreating potential playmates, friends who now only visit sans kid and a good number of cat's bums mouths when your and your kids are in the vicinity. And then try very hard to beat down the inclination to launch in the the "persecution by jealous inadequate sheeple" spiel so you can take a second to mull over if that is a sign that perhaps the chosen method needs to be more of a tool in a varied box, and less of a yoke squashing the family underneath it.

SpanishFly · 20/04/2013 23:27

Yanbu to be annoyed at his mum.
Yabu to call him a little shit. (Imagine someone talking about your dc like that behind your back?)
Yabu to all be bitching about them.
Yabu to keep saying how you're from a nice area etc - wtf has that got to do with anything?
Yabu to assume your kids' behaviour is all down to their upbringing.
Yabu to not have said anything to the child or mum before now.
Yabu to ask for advice then get pissed off at anyone who gives it to you.

SpanishFly · 20/04/2013 23:29

PS my 2yo knows his colours, can use a knife and fork, says please and thank you, talks in astounding sentences, and is fucking gorgeous. Do I win?

cory · 21/04/2013 00:32

Don't worry SpanishFly; by the time he is 13 he will be eating with his fingers and dribbling ketchup down his front Grin

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