To expect a mother to teach her child to stop being a little shit

[Loopyhasanotherbean]

We go to a toddler group and there is one child who attends who persistently gives an evil stare to other children before running at them and pushing them over. This has resulted in tears from the other children almost every week for months on end. He is 2 and is doing this on purpose and the others are too nice and kind to retaliate, not that we would want them to really. He also snatches whatever toy he wants from any other child or baby, using whatever force necessary to get his own way. None of the other children do anything to provoke this, they are all gentle well behaved toddlers and getting very upset and not knowing what they have done wrong to mean they get hurt.

She never apologises on his behalf and he won't say sorry (he isn't at all sorry). Are we all being unreasonable to expect her to start disciplining him, taking responsibility for his behaviour and teaching him how to behave towards the other children?? We don't know what to do, but I am not sure I can bite my tongue much longer. She is as far as I know a nice woman, but she does not tell him off and he doesn't go to nursery do there is no one else to discipline him....

So now you're saying a BABY of a YEAR OLD had an evil stare?

I'm out.

I sympathised with you at first Op but as your posts have developed you are just coming across as very very smug.

Oh. And in the process of teaching my child to be good and kind to others, I make special emphasis on not judging people based on whether they come from a 'nice area' or not.

According to this thread, 2 year olds can:

• Victimise other children
• Bully other children that is, they are mean with the intent of being mean
• Give evil stares with genuine emotion
• Say sorry and mean it and also give vibes that makes their parent know that they mean it

Oh I do love MN!

Of course parents should parent their children but come on, some of the posts here are ridiculous. It's easy to be smug when your child is only 2, it would be interesting to see how angelic these children will be in 30 years time.

I've not read many of the updates, but has this turned into a parent of one small well behaved child who more considers themselves a parenting expert type thread?

YANBU although I wish you would stop talking about your own well-behaved child. Some children are shits in spite of parents' best efforts (guilty).

others know her better and know that she does not agree with telling him off or upsetting him

Okay, assuming that's true, that is pants and YADNBU to find it very frustrating. Why he should be entitled to upset your child and not ever be upset himself.

I went to a group with an overwhelmed young exhausted mom whose toddler was a biter; she was incapable of supervising him fully. I took it on myself to watch him like a hawk & try to intervene before he had a chance to bite. If I were OP I would chat with the other parents about doing something similar for the boy with inappropriate behaviour. See it as supporting the child to be a better person and if mom ends up throwing a fit then shrug her off because honestly, you are allowed to intervene to prevent behaviour that upsets your child, too.

"now considers".

Is this a smug op thread , can't face wading through the whole thing if it is.

I went to a group with an overwhelmed young exhausted mom whose toddler was a biter; she was incapable of supervising him fully. I took it on myself to watch him like a hawk & try to intervene before he had a chance to bite. If I were OP I would chat with the other parents about doing something similar for the boy with inappropriate behaviour. See it as supporting the child to be a better person and if mom ends up throwing a fit then shrug her off because honestly, you are allowed to intervene to prevent behaviour that upsets your child, too.

I love these comments more support of childrens behaviour less judging and tutting is needed well said

Yes hobs it is.

I agree with pacific especially the 'biddable' comment. My gran always said to me how 'biddable' ds1 was. Very bright, talking under a yr, potty trained by 18mths. Could talk in sentences by 18mths and knew his colours, numbers, shapes. Didnt really tantrum, was gentle blah blah blah....then i had ds2!! ds1 is now 13; still bright, a model pupil at school etc but like many teens sullen and grumpy! Ds2 who was bloody hard work as a toddler can still be stubborn as fuck but is very kind and has amazing empathy, everyone comments on how good he is with others and how caring but as a toddler he was a thug!

Ds3 somewhere inbetween the two, ditto ds4. And now i am in the toddlerhood phase with my youngest. Lovely sweet, cute, polite and funny, great speech but she can walllop her brothers and throw a strop because she is two and still learning... She will get there but it takes time and consistency ime.

I am always sympathetic to parents having a hard time as i see the phases children go through and with the best will in the world most kids have challenging moments, some are def easier than others and that has a lot to do with personality of the chikd ime.

Agree mrsjay. I don't think there's a child on earth who hasn't looked like a little shit to an outsider at some point or other. Trying to help, rather than judging, is so much more constructive.

Children go through phases. Mine did. Don't strain yourself patting yourself on the back, OP.

oh god sounds like my mates DS

he is 3 now and exactly the same. she DOES "tell him off" but in like a really lame, ineffectual way

he really is horrible but she is lovely so i put up with it even though he whacked dd in the face with a stick recently

YANBU.

Bad parenting. When you say 'No' you should sound like you mean it. Although it doesn't sound like this mum says much at all (mother of the little darling I mean!)

Agree with comments about how he's only 2 etc. But imo, it's never too young to set boundaries about what is acceptable behaviour and make sure that your toddlers knows you disapprove.

moody makes a good point. Some people might think they've told their child off, but actually all the child has heard is whaayy whayy wahyy, because it's lame and ineffectual. You might as well not bother at all.

Let's hope there's a teacher in the room soon. When they say 'Stop that' it generally works

Let's hope there's a teacher in the room soon. When they say 'Stop that' it generally works

Yeah.

But if an over enthusiatic application of TCS or RU (or similar) are in the room along with the parents and the kids it can also start WWIII

Op I was a bit smug like you when I had ds1 who was exactly like your ds. Dh and I were patting ourselves on the back thinking we were doing a great job as parents. Then along came ds2 who is totally different and challenging to discipline. So temperament had a massive part to play. I don't doubt you've worked hard at your parenting and it does sound like you are doing a great job but that isn't all of it and you would do well to remember this because despite agreeing with how frustrated you are you aren't coming across well.

As far as how you deal with it I agree with those on this thread that you discipline him yourself if his Mum isn't going to. Don't need to shout or be nasty but firmly tell him what he is doing is wrong - things like be gentle / no pushing / no snatching etc. otherwise what you are doing is telling your ds that he isn't allowed to do that to others but others can to him.

I was in this situation when ds1 was little and the daughter of a friend kept pushing him while his Mum did nothing. I decided that I'd rather lose the friendship than have my son think I wasn't going to stand up for him. As it turned out her Mum started doing the same so there were no problems. And as she got older she came out of this phase (which lots of children including my ds2 go through) and is now a lovely little girl.

And personally I think this child is being a little shit. He isn't a shit but he is certainly being one but that is a reflection of both his temperament and his lack of discipline. My ds2 certainly was a little shit (and still is) on several occasions despite mostly being a lovely boy. Most children are at times. Like the op there is no way I'd say this in the situation but I don't think she is unreasonable to use this description on an adult internet forum.

kungfupannda nailed it in today's 09.09 post. Three options: confront the mum yourself, intervene every time and firmly so he and she get the message, or speak to the group/venue leader and get them to have a word. But don't let it go on.

It's not the best thing in the world to call a child a little shit but they are all like this sometimes; this one seems to be one a lot of the time so I can understand the OP's frustration. People get away with a lot worse on here.

doesn't sound to me like you'd be happy even if the mother told the child off. She'd still be that mother with that awful child. Only your op would be worded differently: Aibu to wonder if it would be wrong to ask this mum and dc to leave the group even if the mum is disciplining the dc? Even if you implement discipline it takes sometimes a long time to correct behaviour (at 2 years old some toddlers, well within the normal range, will not speak much and understand not that much more -anyway, empathy vs. Self centeredness is something kids work on until they are 5 or so, with some being slightly ahead of the curve, some behind).

Ds was pretty awful at that age, not quite as bad as the child you're describing, but would snatch and push to get what he wanted. I did correct him and remove him from situations, but only now at 3.6 he has calmed down somewhat. When he was 2 I avoided many situations with other children because I got such judgy vibes (and ds hated toddler groups). It's a shame really isn't it, but I'm sure you'll get a bit of perspective when dc goes to school and everyone knows their colours has learned empathy etc. They just all get it in their own time (also we could of course be talking sn, but here it's irrelevant).

Agree mrsjay. I don't think there's a child on earth who hasn't looked like a little shit to an outsider at some point or other. Trying to help, rather than judging, is so much more constructive.

exactly we have all come across 'that child' but they really are only little children who honestly dont know any better they don't have evil stares or do things on purpose to be mean and nasty they do things like pushing and biting because they are toddlers they have no concept of sharing or whatever because they are babies,

And, op, I do understand that you do not want your child hurt, but let's call a spade a spade, and not pretend that you're happy until the child leaves. That's fair enough, but when and where, if at all, should the mum socialize her dc and have "mum-chat time" herself?

Perhaps she could go to a toddler group in a less naice area to be with other inferior children.

I do think the OP is getting a tough time here though! Of course, all kids have their moments, but it does sound as though this particular child is lacking any kind of parental direction at all?

The child may not be a little shit, but he is certainly acting like one enough times to merit such frustration

That's fair enough, but when and where, if at all, should the mum socialize her dc and have "mum-chat time" herself?

There is the school of thought that if you choose to rigidly stick to an "all hail the lack of coercion" style of parenting, and flatly refuse to acknowledge that it is making you and your child somewhat not fun for other people to be around in social settings, then it is you, not the other "nasty" mums, who has denied your child willing playmates to socialise with and you, not the other "nasty" mums, who has denied yourself the niceness of adult company happy for a chat.

Back in the real world, you can't choose a "complete non interference" style of bringing up your child, ignore that it isn't aiding their ability to settle well into social situations and then optimistically expect everybody else...

-to take their lumps without seriously going off the dealer of the lumps

-to show a tolerance for and understanding of your sentiments/values, particularly when you demonstrably do not intend to reciprocate

-to be friendly and welcoming in the face of your indifference to their hurt and tearful toddlers

-to support you during the times you are overwhelmed by the behaviours you have allowed to flourish via inaction, all while you deny them mere acknowledgement when their child is on the sharp end of said behaviours

-to not groan inwardly and write this session off as a lost cause as soon as they see you and toddler approaching the door, while surreptitiously googling alternative groups cos they have enough parenting issues of their own to resolve each day without adding your parenting issues to the their load

Everybody gets to pick their style, but it has to be done bearing in mind the reality that you are also picking the consequences of that choice for yourself and your kid. Especially if you ignore that it has turned out not to be a good fit for you and yours, and people start withdrawing and rejecting the pair of you.

It is nonsensical to blame irritated, frustrated, cross and retreating people for being unwillingly cast as the consequences of another parent refusing to recognise that her preferred style and actual child go together as well as salt and coffee.