To expect a mother to teach her child to stop being a little shit

[Loopyhasanotherbean]

We go to a toddler group and there is one child who attends who persistently gives an evil stare to other children before running at them and pushing them over. This has resulted in tears from the other children almost every week for months on end. He is 2 and is doing this on purpose and the others are too nice and kind to retaliate, not that we would want them to really. He also snatches whatever toy he wants from any other child or baby, using whatever force necessary to get his own way. None of the other children do anything to provoke this, they are all gentle well behaved toddlers and getting very upset and not knowing what they have done wrong to mean they get hurt.

She never apologises on his behalf and he won't say sorry (he isn't at all sorry). Are we all being unreasonable to expect her to start disciplining him, taking responsibility for his behaviour and teaching him how to behave towards the other children?? We don't know what to do, but I am not sure I can bite my tongue much longer. She is as far as I know a nice woman, but she does not tell him off and he doesn't go to nursery do there is no one else to discipline him....

"He is well behaved, and it is through me teaching him how to behave, not down to luck."

Congratulations. You're a wonderful human being. Let me guess, when he's up there graduating from Cambridge with his first-class honours medical degree, you'll be that smug mother in the audience all teary-eyed saying 'you see, hubby? It's all because of me, I parented him so well and taught him right from wrong!!'.

You do realize that parenting is a little more complicated than teaching your children right from wrong and then reaping the benefits of your own wisdom and brilliance as they robotically follow you exactly all their lives? Good luck with the next 16 years of reality, OP.

Seriously op you're looking daft. My eldest is well behaved and kind. That is his nature, he never pushed a child, snatched a toy etc.

Then I had dc2 and dc3. You've got just the one have you?

If you're the greatest parent in history so good at this parenting lark surely it should be easy to apply some of your great wisdom and skill to another child at a Playgroup

Loopy my friend has a son who does what you describe. He's being assessed soon for special needs. Lay off. You don't know the story here.

This sounds like my just-turned-2 year old DD. Well, apart from the "evil stare" . She tends to have a great big smile on her face when she's pushing other toddlers over/snatching toys off from them etc.
I apologise to the toddlers/parents, return the toy etc, tell DD she mustn't push/snatch, leave the group early if she persists in doing it. I do ask her to apologise, but she doesn't - not because this is all part of her devious, deviant, bullying personality but because she doesn't have many words yet.

She doesn't do it on purpose. It's got sod all to do with how she's been parented - FFS! She's acting pretty much like a standard 2 year old.

But i would question the parenting of someone who thinks it's acceptable to call a 2 year old a 'little shit.'

Yes, yes, my DS does all that too at 2y2m (apart from the "would never hurt another child, which is frankly unbelievable - all you can say is he hasn't yet), and if you want to get competitive with language/brightness I am happy to pile in with his achievements.

Obviously some of what they do is down to parenting. But the vast, vast majority is pure luck/temperament. My DS learnt colours/numbers/shapes/letters because you literally couldn't stop him. If he wasn't interested or receptive I could have sat him down for hours a day with Baby Einstein or whatever and it wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference. If your 2 yr old doesn't yet know green/red (which would be totally within the norm) then really, how the fuck do you teach them the Green Cross Code? Likewise if they hardly talk, trying to enforce "excuse me" or "please may I leave the table" would be a total waste of time.

Yes, this Mum should deal with the way her son's behaviour impacts on others. No one is saying differently. But please, give over with the smugness.

Yesterday I was in a room with a child of 24m and a child of 35m. They are both two but their cognitive abilities are obviously vastly different. That said, even the younger one has learned that if you make someone else sad or cross you adopt a contrite expression and say sorry.

If the child in the OP is nearly three he definitely can be doing things on purpose - that is, not maliciously, but testing boundaries and exploring other children's reactions, and enjoying doing so.

In a group setting it is absolutely acceptable to expect the mother to react when the child upsets or hurts others. At toddler groups I have attended, we have had an agreed code of conduct by which parents are explicitly required to deal with their children. Repeated failure or refusal to do so has resulted in being asked not to return.

It is up to the group organisers to make sure she knows what is expected of her. It's all about her reactions, and not his behaviour per se. If the other adults and children see that his behaviour isn't tolerated, they will be tolerant of him.

Gobsmacked! I am a childminder and no way would this be acceptable! 2 year olds do understand when you address the behaviour, even if just using words such as kind, gentle etc YANBU

I cannot tell you all how relieved I am that some others with challenging DCs have owned up to struggling with dealing with some of these behaviours.

And I agree with everybody who said, it's the mother's behaviour that seems a bit dubious, not the toddler's.

I also agree that much as Loopy should of course be pleased about how well-behaved her DS is, but please stop taking all the credit for this. He sounds like what is known around here as a 'biddable' child who is prepared to follow your guidance and example. Thank your lucky stars you have not been blessed with a Contrary Mary...

Frankly, most 2 year olds can be little shits, and it's our job as parents to show them this is unacceptable. It sounds like this mum is not doing her job.

And I really don't get all these posters saying "YABU to call a 2 year old a little shit". It's not as if you are calling him it to his face. It's just another of these Mumsnet stock responses (Baaa).

You're wrong, OneHandFlapping. Some two year olds can be little shits because they have bad parents but the OP's two year old is not and never will be a little shit because she is a perfect parent who has taught her DS right from wrong.

Unlike these awful mothers out there with little shit kids who don't live in nice areas.

There are some shitty parents, a two year old being referred to as a little shit is ok is it? . I am not a sheep, I can think for myself.

OP, if the mum says nothing when her child acts up just say something to the child yourself. A gentle "no, that's not nice". Try to find ways of helping them all when they play together. If you take the lead the other mum might get the idea. I've got three and seen this time and again. It is just terrible twos.

Someone sitting by while their kid bullies others? Sounds a bit slack to me.

Actually, based on some info above I think it might be an over enthusiastic application of a parenting philosophy like radical unschooling or Taking Children Seriously rather than simply slacking. It could be worth the OP doing a little further digging with her source to see if the original info came with certain key phrases like RU, TCS or "non coercive". If it did then that would point very strongly to a philosophy based strategy being in place. And becuase the philosophies themselves are quite extreme when compared to the more mainstream variety they can be quite fixed positions. If fixed, resolution or mutal understanding can be harder to come by with the more typical indirect "oh shall I parent your child for you? watch me do it" or direct "would you mind terribly stopping your child from walloping mine ?" because those can be viewed as actual persecution from wrong headed sheeple, while the natural irritation of parents watching their kids being regularly clonked gets minimised away to irrelevancy.

I personally wouldn't want to be stepping in and correcting the child directly when the mother does not under those circumstance ever again, because that can increase tensions dramatically and then it gets so much harder to resolve with any tactic other than voting with your feet because parental backs being massively up on both sides just polarises postions further.

Maybe wording an approach to mum along the lines of "I understand you don't want to coerce you child, but I'm sure you understand I don't want my child coming to see other kids as something he needs to be fearful of, can we talk about finding a way so both of us and both of our children can spend time here in a positive way ?"

(I know it's wordy but certain turns of phrases might reflect back the "fundamentals of philosophy" so they might get heard)

I think even somebody who has spent so long on certain parenting forums that they have absorbed a persecution complex by osmosis would find it a struggle to treat an approach like that as purely hostile to them and their value system.

I wouldn't put money on a solution actually being found, because to put it bluntly, the philosophy can be pretty cemented in place, particularly with younger children, but as a way to crack open the door to see if she will make concessions within her parenting philosophy in order to rub along bettet in a social settings I think it is worth a try.

If the OP gets feedback from her along the lines of "other kids are just going to have to suck up being collateral damage" in the name of her parental philosophy so her child doesn't become irrevocably damaged by the occasional redirection or the odd outright "No, stop it", then I think there are only two choices in terms of speedy resolution.

One is to take it up with the organiser and ask what their policy is when users of the facility never intervene when their child is persistently hurting other children and see if that gives the heads up that tensions are brewing and it's time to be a bit more proactive at communicating what is required of parents in their faciltiy before people start voting with their feet and warning others to give it a wdie berth.

The other is to vote with feet, or accept that being at playgroup means off chair, on carpet full time ready to provide a large human shield the whole time your toddler is there.

Not perfect solutions, but then easy perfect solutions are infrequently on the table when parental ideals and values clash in a social setting. And that reality doesn't melt away thanks to uninvolved outsiders bandying around "just" like it was a magic wand.

In the OP's postion I would grab a few phone numbers of the mums I liked best and go for meeting up indpendantly instrad. If playgroup is more stressful than it is nice for parent or kid, it's worth knocking on the head in favour of other socialble activities. It's a pity when the one local to you has issues that make it less than appealling, but unless the organisers are prepared to have ground rules for parents and remind people to respect them, there isn't really all that much you can do about it.

YANBU to wish the mum would step in and do something about the child's behaviour. I agree that perhaps you should talk to the person that runs the group. I also agree with the BAAAAA comment above! Stock phrases one can expect from MN!

I would never swear at or in front of any child, but quite frankly last night I was so sick of this repeated bad behaviour hence my posting. It has been going on since he could move, so over a year now. It has never improved, as he gets bigger he is getting stronger and hurting them all more and it is after biting our tongues for a while that it is finally getting too much. I am glad that there are at least some of you out there who are also trying to teach your children how to be good and kind to others, I just hope my child is lucky enough to meet such children when he goes to school. My child is no angel, there have been times where he has tried to do things he shouldn't, but I have always stepped in and told him how to behave and he knows now what is acceptable. I don't know any child who is born knowing how to do anything, I view it as part of the role of parent to teach your children everything about life, and how will they know what is right or wrong if not taught? My issue is that the mother has let him do whatever he wants for over a year now to the other children, and if something doesn't change soon, then he will start to cause serious harm to the others. I have never took it upon myself to discipline someone else's child and I have never told another parent how to raise their children, so I am wary of causing upset, but just wanted opinions on what others would do in this situation. That was all.

Re Cambridge uni comments, I don't care what any of my children achieve as long as they are happy in life and don't do anything illegal! Having gone through the grammar school system, I know plenty of academics who ended up miserable and ended up trading in their professional lives for other careers. I will never push him, but at the same time I will support them all and feed his learning hunger for as long as he wants me to.

Re colours, is it really not normal to know them? He knows, recognises and can say green, red, blue, pink, purple, yellow, white, black, brown, orange and also clear for transparent items.

Yes mn is such a bugger for the stock phrases. Not liking racism/sexism/toddlers being called little shits - all things that make some of us such sheep.

Honestly a 2 year old is a toddler, the parent does need to step up if he's hurting other children and the OP is perfectly entitled to tell the child if he's hurt her child.

But calling a 2 year old names even on an anonymous internet forum - well its just not nice.

Loopy personally if another 2 year old hurt my child and the parent did nothing I'd say something along the lines of 'now that wasn't very kind, lets use gentle hands and no pushing please' and then take child to the parent and tell them what he'd done.

It is hard I know though - good luck with it.

Yes, it's well within normal for a 2 year old (although you haven't specified whether this is a just-2 or nearly-3) to not know their colours. Some do obviously, personally my own child genius ;) knew them all by 18 months, but some just aren't at all interested until much later. Lots of children are barely talking at 2. Doesn't mean a thing in the long term, either.

I never understand how these situations apparently go on for so long without someone actually doing something about it. Your options are:

1. Speak frankly to the mother and ask her to monitor her child more closely to stop these incidents
2. Approach her every single time the child hurts another - every time, relentlessly, until she is so embarrassed that she does something about it.
3. Speak to the group leader and ask them to tell the other mum that she needs to supervise more closely or stop coming.

It's not complicated. I sometimes think people prefer bonding over a shared problem so much that they don't actually want to deal with it.

I agree with kung fu panda. You really need to take the initiative here, it will be best for everyone. I have learnt a lot over the years just watching how other parents deal with things. Doing something is better than nothing.

Glad at least some people are teaching their children good manners & not to hurt others? WTAF? The majority of parents do this!

This whole thing is a massive stealth boast.

Actually it's not even very stealth :)

I've been reading through this thread, and I think CarpeVinum could be right.

OP the tone of your posts is really starting to stick in my craw. Not one person has come onto this thread to say that the little boy's behaviour is acceptable behaviour. But you seem tone making some fairly passive aggressive swipes about the parenting styles of those who suggest a more tolerant/proactive approach.

I understand that you are concerned about your child getting hurt. I would suggest stepping in, gently to correct the boy. Doing nothing an allowing your feelings to fester won't be good for anyone.

I think the idea of all these perfect mums nearly biting holes through their tongues at this 'little shit' who has been evil for over a year since he could move really scary. Why have you not just said ooh gentle please not pushing and move your child? I have 2 dcs, One 30 and a mum of 2dds 12 and 6, One 29 and dad to Ds 7 and 17 months and dd aged 3. I have 17 nieces and nephews and 11 great nieces and nephews my dil has nursery managers qualification, I am a counsellor and run a toddler group and would be horrified at your arrogant smug behaviour. You will be very surprised one day that your dcs will do something you don't approve of Will you then take the 'blame' for their fall? You really are naive at best. For goodness sake stop bigging up your child. If you are really concerned for the behaviour of this other child what do you want us to say? Wow there is no excuse for this awful womans parenting and if only you could bully her into training her child to be like yours the world would be perfect.?