To expect a mother to teach her child to stop being a little shit

[Loopyhasanotherbean]

We go to a toddler group and there is one child who attends who persistently gives an evil stare to other children before running at them and pushing them over. This has resulted in tears from the other children almost every week for months on end. He is 2 and is doing this on purpose and the others are too nice and kind to retaliate, not that we would want them to really. He also snatches whatever toy he wants from any other child or baby, using whatever force necessary to get his own way. None of the other children do anything to provoke this, they are all gentle well behaved toddlers and getting very upset and not knowing what they have done wrong to mean they get hurt.

She never apologises on his behalf and he won't say sorry (he isn't at all sorry). Are we all being unreasonable to expect her to start disciplining him, taking responsibility for his behaviour and teaching him how to behave towards the other children?? We don't know what to do, but I am not sure I can bite my tongue much longer. She is as far as I know a nice woman, but she does not tell him off and he doesn't go to nursery do there is no one else to discipline him....

:-( horrible awkward situation. But if she chooses not to do anything and your child is being hurt or frightened then I think you are perfectly entitled to step in. Maybe if he other Mums see you correcting him some others might do the same and this boy might learn that at least at the toddler group roughness isn't ok. Never mind if he's as wild as an alley cat at home!

FWIW I positively encourage other parents to intervene as I think it helps to drive the message home that certain behaviours are not acceptable when that message comes from somebody else than 'just' me.

Still, I know how hard I've tried. I know what kind of values and behaviour we strive to instill in our children. I know how much effort I put in to engaging them/being consisten/being kind but firm. Yet still, some of mine have been more psychopathic harder work than others. And truly - what on earth has a nice area to do with it?? Enjoy your well-behaved/even tempered DS, but IME a lot of how kids are is to do with their personalities and stage of development. I don't mean to offend, but you do sound rather pleased with your parenting. I genuinely hope you will never have to be less pleased about your DS's behaviour.

I don't see this as a situation to be 'entitled' in Surely it is better to treat all the children as one group - not a group and the 'little shit' If any other child did some snatching or pushing its just normal to say ooh careful ' little shit' be gentle, play nicely, share etc, etc. By all bitching and judging you are enabling bad behaviour. It doesn't sound a very nice group at all.

At the end if the day, the child is two. He is still a baby. Not that I am condoning his behaviour but he still has a lot to learn about social rights and wrongs.

Your issue should be with his mother. She is the one not dealing with his behaviour. She is the one who is wrong, not a baby FFS.

Why don't you challenge her behaviour rather than bitch about a child who has been on this earth less than two minutes?? To me it says more about you than about the child. Your not happy about how you child is treated yet you don't intervene

Guessing you have an only OP.

FWIW my cousins daughter was exactly like this at 2. My cousin was mortified and a very gentle person and did not know how to deal with it. Her daughter is not 7 and extremely clever and compassionate and lovely to be around. I think she was very bright and frustrated and took it out on the other children. She grew out of it. Perhaps you'll relax a little when you have a second child OP

Does not sound like the kind of group i would want to bring my child to. How the hell can a 2 year old be classed as evil or a little shit , you do not know what kind of problem's this child may have . YABU.

Of course it's not your job to discipline another's child, but by not intervening what message are you sending out to your child? Does your child stand there when pushed because they think it's ok as no one says otherwise? It's as much about setting boundaries for your child as to what is appropriate.

This is, IMO, what makes it your right to tell the child who is misbehaving a gentle, yet firm, 'No' when the parents won't or don't.

The child in the OP could be my DS3. There is no way I could make him apologise for having knocked someone over. Mostly because he can't even say sorry. Or very much else, for that matter. But also because he just doesn't notice other people or things in his way (yes, his eyesight is FINE), he will run and fall over toy boxes, become focused on a toy the other side if the room and just run for it irrespective of who or what is in the way.

He injures himself whilst doing this, as well as any toddlers he happens to run 'through'.

Me telling him off for it would be about as much use as expecting a person from the amazon rainforest who has never spoken anything but the language of their tribe to understand French spoken by a Dane.

That's not to say that I don't say it, but it means that due to his receptive and expressive speech delay, he doesn't actually understand wtf I'm saying to him.

Most if his communicating is done in simple Makaton. He is still currently in the process of learning what I mean when I sign banana, and cannot yet connect the sign to an actual banana.

So telling him that he needs to be careful of other children is about as much use as trousers are to a kipper.

Not everything is as obvious as you think!

And the focusing on something across the room and rushing for it despite any obstacles in the way is probably connected to a combination of hyperactivity (dxd hyperactivity, not just a 'usual' toddler hyperactivity) and the possible Autism that he is being assessed for next month.

He is 2y3mo.

OP you say your child will give other children his most prized possession, his teddy rag. What's a teddy rag???

dontmeanto I should imagine it's some sort of piece of cloth that looks like/represents a teddy. Why the face?

I would hazard a guess that you and your friends who are discussing this child/mother are PFB mums ans she/he is not.

Don't really understand why this has got so complicated.

Part of how kids behave is down to the parents, and part is luck. If you've only had an easy gentle compliant kid you really can't understand what it's like to have a challenging one. (I have both kinds)

Some 2-year olds behave aggressively. If toddler pushed my toddler I told the pusher firmly "no pushing" and took him/her to the parents. I taught my own dcs to say "don't push" in a big voice.

That's all you can do. If the mum doesn't like that I couldn't care less. My own child needs to see me stand up for them and that's more important to me than the other mum feeling uncomfortable or annoyed with me.

Ilovemydog - honestly are you being deliberately dim - of course I know she didn't call the child a little shit to its face. But I still don't think its on to refer to a 2 year old as that even on you know an anonymous internet forum - thanks for pointing out to me that's what mn is though

"My child is a gentle, thoughtful, kind one, who understands right from wrong, and says sorry if he thinks he has done something wrong"

Yes, I'm sure your child is a perfect angel, OP, who is entirely free of any character flaws and sent from heaven. Smug, much?

Honestly your tone is really nasty and you seem to have some attitude problem towards this woman and her child for some reason. Why not be nice and try to ask the mother how she's doing?

I think in this case, if it's true, the mother should certainly make an effort to be firm with her child e.g. 'no hitting', 'no pushing' etc and praise good behavior but other than that, what can she do? At one of the playgroups I go to, there was a mother last term with a 2-year old girl like this who just hit and pushed other toddlers if they came anywhere near her. Her mother was clearly exasperated and was trying all kinds of discipline but nothing worked. We were understanding about it because we know that 2 is a difficult age.

One day she brought her mother with her to class and she was clearly quite ill, I assumed with cancer as she had lost her hair. So who knows? Maybe this little girl was feeling the stress at home from having an ill grandmother?

You never know people's situation in life so don't be so quick to judge.

Agreed Henry Sugar: temperament plays a part. Last term at Spanish class my son was the 'angel', so well-behaved and smiley. Recently, however, we've been having a hard time and he's getting more and more wilful. I was mortified last week when he pushed a child for the first time and started throwing a full-blown Category 10 tantrum later in the class.

Again, though, the other mothers in the group were nice about it. One mother asked 'is he quite strong-willed?' about my DS and initially I was on the defensive but then she explained that her elder son had been very wilful and hard to discipline and she found it really tough but her second child was much quieter and relaxed. She confided that she used to blame herself so much but with her second realized that temperament is half the battle.

I wish parents would lighten the feck up sometimes and give each other more support rather than judging and calling children 'little shits'.

Not that it has anything to do with the issue we are facing but we all have more than one child.

My child was not easy, like I said its hard work, but I see it as my job to raise him with manners, to know right from wrong, and to be considerate of others. He is a happy, polite and confident child and would never hurt another child. He is like this because I showed him what was acceptable. He knows how to behave, he also knows to be gentle with babies and animals. He knows what to do at road crossings re green/red men. He knows to eat with his mouth closed and to not talk when he has food in his mouth. He is a very energetic child, and very demanding as he is bright and hungry to learn everything and anything, but just because he is hard work and not my only child doesn't mean I couldn't I still certain values into him. (And I am not bragging re him being bright, I haven't told people in RL as don't need the hassle, but nursery have said his speech is more advanced than children 7 months older than him and have commented on how tiring it can be as he never stops talking)

It sounds like enough of you think I should intervene next time and tell him how to behave when he shoves my child into a wall or to the ground. Thanks for those that gave positive replies.

Loopy - you know what comes before a fall?

We're all proud of our DCs, and most put lots of effort into all you describe. You do come across as smug, I don't want to be hurtful, but I feel you do. My point is if you do say anything you need to remove any trace of this or it will backfire on you.

Offer to help this mum......genuinely.

Good for you loopy, your child can do all this and is only 2 yrs great. But this other child of 2 yrs who you have called a little shit and is only 2 may turn out to be the best child and maybe even do really well at school , get a great job when older and your little boy may turn into a little shit. That's why you should never judge other people or their children because you never know what your own could turn out like.

Any child psychologist will tell you that, disorders aside, behaviour at 2 is a mixture of innate temperament and parenting.

My first child had standard tantrums but never ever hit another child. Second is wilful, stubborn, aggressive, throws toys in frustration and pushes other kids (including whacking her older sister). I always say no firmly and take her away from situation for acts of aggression. I'd never sit by and do nothing. I also wouldn't have any problem saying 'no! please don't push' etc to someone else's kid. I've told off strangers' kids in parks, museums and public places for really harsh stuff like pushing other kids off a swing, hitting other kids etc. I'd give the parent a chance to do it first but if its clear they're not going to do anything (often because they're chatting to mates/on their phone) I'd tell the kid myself.

All this stuff about 'support the mum' I don't get in the OP's situation. If the mum was trying really hard to sort the kid out and the kid wasn't responding, then of course, sympathetic smiles and reaching out are in order. Someone sitting by while their kid bullies others? Sounds a bit slack to me.

He is also two, loopy. There are many stages to go through before he grows up. And they are not all good phases. So be alert. It's like when they sleep through and you think- great, that's it for night waking.....

This is not the kids fault you know OP.

It's the other mum's. Though you should just say something to her/ask whoever runs the group to have a tactful conversation about it with her.

And plenty of kids do things like that purely for the reaction, because at that age empathy is in short supply, which requires better supervision from the mum.

your use of the word "we" rings alarm bells to me, is it a topic of conversation with you and the other mums?

I feel sorry for the mum of the boy i really do.

If its that bad, stop going to the group.

The reason I said to help the mum (genuinely) is as the OP seems to think she has this all licked, why not pass some of that on, in a supportive way. I wouldn't be happy with someone else disciplining DC, granted I would not leave them doing the things OP describes. I really just don't see that option ending well.