To expect a mother to teach her child to stop being a little shit

[Loopyhasanotherbean]

We go to a toddler group and there is one child who attends who persistently gives an evil stare to other children before running at them and pushing them over. This has resulted in tears from the other children almost every week for months on end. He is 2 and is doing this on purpose and the others are too nice and kind to retaliate, not that we would want them to really. He also snatches whatever toy he wants from any other child or baby, using whatever force necessary to get his own way. None of the other children do anything to provoke this, they are all gentle well behaved toddlers and getting very upset and not knowing what they have done wrong to mean they get hurt.

She never apologises on his behalf and he won't say sorry (he isn't at all sorry). Are we all being unreasonable to expect her to start disciplining him, taking responsibility for his behaviour and teaching him how to behave towards the other children?? We don't know what to do, but I am not sure I can bite my tongue much longer. She is as far as I know a nice woman, but she does not tell him off and he doesn't go to nursery do there is no one else to discipline him....

OP this child may have some sort of disabilty/mental difficulty?

cant you talk to the mum in a friendly way? maybe shes embarrassed to admit theres something 'different' about her child?

could just be an out and out brat but always good to try a different perspective?

I agree with Ilovemydog. It is nonsense to say all 2 year olds do this....no they don't. The parent ought to be watching her child more carefully and reminding him how to behave. If she doesn't it is bound to cause bad feeling. The only solution is to tell him off or ask her to. I totally disagree that the OP must be exaggerating it, I've seen this sort of situation many times at toddler groups.

Ilovemy dog - come on - calling a 2 year old a little shit is never going to end well on here is it?

In similar situations I've just done the generic 'come on everyone gentle hands etc' spiel - I don't see that its really that hard to do.

As I said, my DS happens to be similar. "Well behaved" etc. Difference is, I put it down to luck rather than superior parenting at this age.

If you were talking about a 5 or 6 year old I'd be mire inclined to agree.

My name was supposed to be temporary after someone said that Facebook is for wankers but I've stuck with it now.

My DD is well behaved about 95% of the time. Even the CM has commented on it. She went through a bit of a naughty phase when we moved her bed time, but we moved it back and her good behaviour returned. I think it's just her nature...nothing we've done. I just don't think it occurs to her to be naughty. I'm not complacent though, she's only 3 so I'm sure it will come soon enough.

The boy is two, yes he needs to be told its not OK to snatch/push etc but at that age he won't be being malicious.

A firm no and tell him/show him to be gentle, encourage turn taking etc and distraction and intervention before it happens are your best bet.

As an aside my 28mth old dd is very polite, says please and thank you and says sorry, she also wallops her elder brothers and screams like a banshee if she doesn't get her own way, so fairly typical of most toddlers.

They are learning and it takes time, they aren't 'little shits' and they don't do it because they are spoilt or indulged but because they are two and don't know any better.

Loopy - you need to start teaching your child to tell other children to stop doing things that upset him. Really you do - he shouldn't just accept things being snatched off him - its not fair.

But equally - I've seen many children who've been 'challenging' at 2-4 years old but have grown out of it. And I don't think its at all on to call them names.

Loopy it breaks my heart too. I was going to say that but I thought I'd be accused of being over dramatic.

And a two year old that doesn't push etc doesn't not do it because they are 'good' and know its naughty, it just hasn't occurred to them/they haven't had that impulse yet.

Not all toddlers do this but most do something similar at some point.

An evil stare? How intriguing

Actually it rang a bell for me. I've only ever seen it once. Taught easily a few hundred teeny tinies of pre school age over the last couple of decades. But just in that one case alone have I seen a child so young (he would have been a few months shy of three) actually engage with that kind of look/stance.

I don't know what was behind it, or if he grew out of it etc. The contact only lasted about six months. But he would fix his "prey" with this intent stare, and (given his age) it was really disconcerting the look that went with it. He would wait, maintaining a malevolant stare on the kid he had in his sights. Then he would attack. A push, a wollop, a snatch of a toy, all fairly normal kinds of toddeler style physical stuff. But the look and the real sense of him picking a victim and waiting for a good moment to pounce, with that look on his face, made the hairs stand up on the back of my neck. Cos it was totally unlike anything I'd seen before, or since.

It didn't go unnoticed by mums, staff, and "evil" was used to describe the intense stare. I can't reconcile evil with a 2 year old, but there was something.... extremely unsettling, about the way all the elements came together and that look in his eyes was the clincher that took it way out the ordinary.

It might well be that the OP is seeing more than is actually there cos her view is coloured by having to see her kid get hurt or upset without parental intervention. But it's not impossible that it's an emotive, but not altogether unbelievable description of what she is observing.

With any luck the kid is just going through a Stare of Death phase.

Gives me the willies just remembering it. It was so wierd, and looked all wrong for a kid so small to have the ability to use his face and eyes like that.

He is 2. Do you have a son or a daughter? I only ask because with the best will in the world, you cannot understand a boy unless you have one. Or at least in my experience that has been true. I suspect this mother has got herself stuck in a rut where she has maybe over disciplined him and is now going in completely the opposite direction. I suspect she may feel judged whether she disciplines or not because, well there are people like you out there who think her ds is a shit.

Not so long ago my son went through very similar stages. It's perfectly understandable once you realise these few pointers;

2yo's only have a concept of 'self'. No one else features unless they want something.

2yos do not have the best grip of language. He's hardly likely to come out and say 'oh I'm sorry my dear, but would you mind if I had a turn with that shiny fire engine/car/drum' etc. instead he sees, he wants, he takes. It's not limited to boys either.

Boys particularly are more physical. It's not an excuse to justify why my ds may push your dc around. But it probably means he needs a good run around to let off some steam. So get some physical games going - it doesn't have to be with anyone, throwing a ball and getting the boy to run after it and fetch it back could be enough.

By all means challenge the little boy with behaviour which is generally unacceptable. But empathise with his mother as no matter how perfect a parent you are, one day your little darling will be considered a shit by someone.

Op yadnbu

This isn't normal, I go to toddler groups and there isn't anything like this going on. Any small disagreement between the children is delt with by an adult near-by. Just the usual stuff. Adults have to show 2yos how to behave if we all sit around and leave them to it with the excuse that they're only two then when will they ever learn?

I'm surprised at how you've had a pasting on here op. I second ilovemydog and facebookwanker

MrsCampbellBlack you do realise the op didn't actually call the child a little shit to his face? She used the term on an anonymous adult Internet forum. We all understand her frustration. We've all been there. We get it. It's a perfectly apt description when the child or his parent have no idea it's been said. It perfectly conveys the dept of her frustration to us. Please try to keep up.

He does that look every time, and then he runs and shoves his victim. It is not at all playful, he never smiles before during or after. Just this stare. Same look when he snatches toys. I'm more concerned re the shoving. My child knows this is wrong and he knows I wouldn't stand for him behaving like that towards anyone irrespective of their age, but then he sees this child do it repeatedly without any consequence.

I run a toddler group and my first thought was why are all the mums of the perfect toddlers not helping this mum with her child? do you all help each other and just not her? Perhaps she knows exactly what her ds is like she is with him all day and night and is tired and worn down. Perhaps her going to toddlers is a time when she can relax and hope she gets some support. If it is done in a gentle friendly way it won't seem judgemental of her. OP sounded like it was them against the world it came across as a bit exclusive.

You have no idea what that kids homelife is like OP.

And to be honest, that's what happens to the average toddler that goes 'unchecked' i.e. it gets worse .

If you aren't prepared to say something to the mum then you're well within your rights to at least say something to the boy when he's just hurt your DC or to remove your DC from their immediate presence (maybe this will be a hint to the mum).

It's a hard one because you've come across very harshly, considering you don't really know what's going on with them & some people are just pure unlucky with their DC but it's irritating when you feel you have to protect your DC from certain kids at things like this.

I had/have a 'difficult' child and spent years chasing him round playgroups teaching him not to snatch, take turns etc. It wasn't malicious, he is just impulsive (as all children are) and strong willed.

I used to dread going to these groups, because I could never just relax and have a cup of tea like the other mums. I'm also shy and I was scared people would be judging me.

I think that's why people have taken umbrage at the OP, which does sound a wee bit self satisfied. I'm sure you're doing a brilliant job, but I also think temperament plays a huge part in how easy it is to teach your child manners.

Not to derail the thread but Lunaticfringe, when you say your friends are in denial about their son, what is it that you expect they should do? Accept that their child is some kind of monster? Or perhaps hope that by treating him normally, he might learn normal paramers of behaviour?

And I've known a lot of children over my lifetime and never encountered one like this, where he is clearly selecting a target and giving this look, without any reason or provocation. My child doesn't even talk to or go near this one, as he is already wary of him after seeing him push pretty much every other child in the group to the floor in the past.

This is exactly the reason I always hated taking my dc to any sort of play group ,
This child is 2,
For those out there who have perfectly behaved 2 year olds,it's not always down to parenting.it sometimes just luck.
If anyone feels smug about their perfect 2 year old,that perfect 2 year old may turn out to be a ' little shit' 5 year old. Don't assume that you have any control over that,you might not.
I feel for the mother of this child, and very glad my days of play groups are over.
2 years old! He is still a baby.

Ilovemydog - many people on this thread have commented on the use of "little shit" to describe a 2 year old child, me included.

I'm intrigued when you say we all understand, we get it, we've all been there. Who are you speaking for/ on behalf of?

When my DS was 2.5 we moved to a different area and went to a new toddler group. DS marched in, spotted a (wooden) train set that he fancied playing with on his own, grabbed a bit of track and walloped the little boy who was playing with it on the head. Job done, the other boy went off crying (very understandably) leaving the train set all to DS. I was mortified.

I've actually just realised that this is kind of irrelevant as I apologised to the other mum profusely and told DS off very firmly unlike the mum at your group. However, DS's world had just been turned upside down and I knew no one , so grateful for toddler groups. Be advised in any group of children there's always ONE IYKMIM.

YANBU to be frustrated by this mum's apparent lack of intervention and by your child's distress.

YABU to expect all 2 year olds to behave as you seem to expect them to behave.

I have 4 boys, 2 of which were/are hitters/pushers/hairpullers. DS3(5) has now grown out of it, thank heavens! DS4(3) I still have to watch like a hawk when we are around other children. It is stressful and upsetting at times for me to go to our toddler group or the playground (I've had threads on here about him and whether I should stop going). I have been staggered by the shere speed and preparedness for physical violence at the drop of hat. As I don't have any girls, I have nothing to compare this to, but the do seem much more physical to me than what I have witnessed from toddler girls (gross generalisation).
I do discipline, I apologise to 'victim' and parent. At times, I helicopter-parents, but he is fast - often faster than me with a quick swipe connecting inspite of me standing right next to him.

I have high hopes that none of my children will grow up to be sociopaths. I don't think that there is anything wrong with you pointing out to his mother that you and your child find his behaviour distressing, however you do come across as expecting similar behaviour that you witness from your child from all other children. And expecting his mother to stop him - well, I've tried to stop mine. Tried really hard. IME, apart from being consistent/removing him from the situation/anticipating flash-points, the only thing that makes one tiny bit of difference is toddlers growing up a bit and turning in to children with a concept of empathy and how their behaviour affects others. See = want = take (by whichever means necessary). Whoever posted this upthread must have met my DSs... .

How well do you know the mother? Do you have any kind of friendship with her or just mutual attendance at a group? Does she have any other children?

Please consider that it's early days for him, she may well be struggling with his behaviour but not yet know whether or not it's a phase he'll grow out of or whether there is something underlying it that is not yet identified. She may also have her own issues and struggle to know how to manage his as well in a group. She may even be attending the group because it's the only time she gets out the house in a week and desperately need friendship and support herself and with him.

If your child is generally happy, self sufficient and socially engaged, perhaps you could take the opportunity to spend some time getting to know her and see if there's more to it than what appears to be your current opinion that she's copped out of parenting him.

Re the look thing...They do think before they do, for a split second. Hence the look. I've known a few that do it actually. Mine even went through a very brief period of doing it for the sake of it and for the reaction. It is most likely a phase, albeit not a nice one.

He's at just the right age to have one & it almost always seems to be about impulsiveness & to get a reaction. Yes, the mum should probably hang close by if she knows she's been dealt this parenting card but she's probably knackered!