Childcare costs- someone talk me through the outrage

[Suzietwo]

Is it just me or does it seem a bit grabby of mothers to be getting cross about the change to child care rules?

I thought the rules were being changed to try and encourage people to work. Ie to give them more choice and be option generating aka A. Good. Thing.

But the stay at home mums voice in the media just sounds a bit self important.

Don't misunderstand me, I am entirely on favour of people and families making decisions which suit them. This isn't about that. It's about people being a bit....indulged? Make a choice, stick with it. The more choices which are available the better so if the gvnt can help (a different argument about whether they should) by offering money to assist people go to work, then fab. But don't demand it for making the choice to stay at home.

I think its normal where we are Mme (Wales). Tbh I would have no problem paying - it is so essential for me, and I worry that one day the council will cut the funding and the whole thing will close. I would prefer it to be self-funding.

Janey

There are some really horrible child care providers though to be fair. Round here they are dreadful dingy slums But I would never for one minute think they are all like this. The goat and sheep sound fab, I bet the dc loved them.

I can't remember now where I saw this but there are going to be free spaces for 2 year olds who come from families where the children will benefit from time away from their parents. So obviously its to socialise the dc of parents unable to do this, for whatever reason. I totally agree with this as its to benefit the dc.

I personally hardly used childcare, free or otherwise for the reasons above. One of my dc had the free pre school the others didn't go at all. However, that is not to say I don't think some other sahps need childcare for particular reasons.

There are some dreadful schools around too more than.
Credit us WOHP with a bit of nouse. We don't shove them
Anywhere!

tbh Boo I object to this. Where I am councils are cutting all manner of services such as library opening hours - just as an example. I don't think there is any place for 'free' breakfast club in the face of this. (Although I appreciate things may be different in your area)

Janey

Totally agree, your nursery sounded absolutely fab, if ours were any good I would have sent mine to at least the 15 hours pre school, but alas they are not good. I think its sad and they should all have the same standard, but they don't.
Oh and totally agree about schools, my dc went to several as moved a bit in their early childhood. Older 2 are completely through now but dd is 9.
She is H.ed though, not because school was rubbish hers was very good, in fact excellent with pastoral care.

I personally think its bonkers too Mme. I would be happy to pay, and I would not be at all surprised it the funding was cut soon
.
But what I also think is bonkers is that (perfectly well-off) SAHP send their DCs to it just so they aren't missing out on the 'free-ness'. Why would you?
I would rather another hour in bed tbh!
People should be more worried about justness in the most general sense, rather than getting petty about every little thing they don't get that someone else does.

Any children from familes with an income of £16190 will get a free 2 year old place

Rusty

It doesn't apply to me but like to be aware is that £16190 and below?

I personally don't understand why people who are at home need this money that is designed for childcare costs. I really don't. I don't have a problem with SAHMs sending their children to nursery or whatever when they are home (hell, I do it!) but I wouldn't expect the tax payer to fund it. If you need a break, pay for it.

I also don't understand the new Child Benefit rules- if this is what they wanted to do, why not say households who earn a certain amount- the SAH party go back to work or lose your child benefit. Would of thought that would of been easier myself because it works out at more or less the same (£20 a week)

I can understand it is difficult for people on JSA- but maybe the government needs to introduce something like long term claimants can have 15 free hours or something for them to actively seek work/volunteer? For most, however, I tend to find it is just excuses.

Spector read the thread it as been explained why childcare is needed by sahp several times.

Yes £16190 and below morethan. Those children will benefit the most from nursery care.

I didn't use a nursery for Ds. He went to a CM whose 4th child was 2 months older than him. He had breakfast, went on a school run. Then did playgroup 3 mornings a week, had a nap. Then got played with with her older dcs after school while she cooked tea.

I still think his time with her was similar to what he would have been doing with a SAHM of school age dcs.

I didn't use a nursery for Ds. He went to a CM whose 4th child was 2 months older than him. He had breakfast, went on a school run. Then did playgroup 3 mornings a week, had a nap. Then got played with with her older dcs after school while she cooked tea.

I still think his time with her was similar to what he would have been doing with a SAHM of school age dcs.

Bridget, given that a high proportion of the country will become parents at some point, maybe the philosophy is that it's cheaper for them to remain in work than to provide retraining in a few years' time. Also, it would be wrong to say "oh there aren't enough jobs to go round today so let's act on that" when preschool years cover a five year horizon, in which time scale we may be out of recession.

I don't know comparative figures, but it is about more than the immediate relative costs.

Why would you need retraining for a job if you were only out of it for say, 3 years? We already have 1 years maternity leave with the minimum of retraining needed.

I'm sure people argued against maternity leave with exactly the same argument...

Incidentally when more women did stay at home with their children there wasn't a huge expense to retrain them, they may have gone into less senior jobs but we are always being told we need more people to fill those kind of jobs. And surely that's their choice.

In my field retraining after 3 yrs wouldn't be unusual.
But who's to say which form of retraining is valid enough to deserve subsidised childcare?

I am not sure though whether the government want to eventually make ALL 2 year olds attend nursery. It wouldn't surprise me. I don't see any benefit from it, other than as childcare, until at least 2.5-3.

The thing is that Clegg etc. seem to love the Swedish model but they seem to want us to have just the 'bad bits' and not the 'good'. For example few if any babies under about 13-16 months are in daycare at all there yet many mothers cannot afford to take their full leave in the UK but would love more. Parents are entitled to 480 days of parental leave with some of that only for father/mother. The mother still usually takes most of it (up to 420 days i think). Also there is time allowed off for sick children (120 days per couple) and shorter more flexible work times allowed. Parents can reduce workload by 25% for example. Alternatively some parents can choose to have their leave anytime up until the child is 8. So they could have a day off a week until then or shorter hours instead.

Bridget, it seems from other posts on here that a 3-7 year SAHP gap does cause issues in returning to work.

Maternity leave is the length that it is as a balance between the needs of the employer and the needs of the employee. But you remain contracted to a specific employer.

Were there lots of women out of work for 3-7 years who went back in the past? Which period are you thinking of? My impression is that there used to be less after school care so school years didn't necessarily help but I could be wrong.

Anyway, I think the general argument is that mothers have to work because they have to be part of a cheap, flexible workforce. So no matter how much they want to stay home with their children they can't. Which is fucking sad to be honest.

If you had another baby after 2 years,5 years out would be more usual.

Some parents like to get their dc settled into reception before going back to work.

Starting school,then coping with childcare before and after school is a lot to ask of any 4 year old.

Depends totally on the child and their prior experience.

Ours coped well with it. They started with 2 full days and 3 half days at pre school at 3 then went full 5 days. In the first year the 3 afternoons not a pre school was spent with someone they knew very well.

I believe it's unfair to say/assume mothers are seen as cheap labour. With the way things are currently, it's jut an employers market. Lots of experienced and talented people out there at the moment and job security is high on their agenda. It doesn't matter if you are male/female or why there is a gap/break in CV (SAHP, career break to travel/study etc.) there is a lot of competition so taking a break is a risk for anyone ( male or female).

Little

Just wanted to say, hope you are ok. There was no need for the bashing before. I don't agree with much you say quite often as we are totally different people, but that was too far. . What you have done for your dc is a completely selfless act and I know what it took for you to be able to do this. From one who knows, much respect to you.

morethan* thank you. I very much appreciate your note. You are right we don't agree on much but at least we can debate without it resulting in nasty attacks.. we need to have these debates so everyone at least understands how things impact and how others feel about issues. I think it's healthy.

I hope this doesn't mean you are going to start been soft on me

morethan, did you read any of what I said- my point was not about adoption and whether adoptees should be looked after by a SAHP. My point was trying to establish whether there was any truth to these claims. I have been debating with someone who is preaching about being a career mum and on other threads they are a career woman who is ttcing their first child. I don't want to be told, this is what you should do SAHP be like me, if the information is confusing and contradictory.

On a side note I don't think adopting is one of the most selfless acts you can do, even the best of parents deep down want a child. My Dad was adopted and would not describe his adoption as one of the most selfless acts his parents ever did.