to think God has no place in my 5 year old's school

[MeSoFunny]

She told me at bedtime last night that 'bad people die but Jesus came to suffer for us so we don't have to'. We're not religious, in fact we're Humanists, and fail to see why a non-religious school would be inviting a local youth 'education' group in to give regular assemblies to children this young (if at all).

Why aren't other people questioning it? Why aren't our children being encouraged to develop critical faculties? I'm feeling frustrated and cross.

Thing is, I'm not quite sure that I want my children's (non C of E) school to routinely involve itself in law-breaking. OK, you might say that in this case a 'pick an mix' approach might be perfectly reasonable, but it would always leave me with a slightly uncomfortable feeling that if they were law breakers in this area, what other 'inconvenient' laws might they be choosing to ignore?

Tbh, my children have never had any problem in discriminating between 'what is said at school' and 'what our family thinks', and it is the latter that has always had the strongest influence ('everyone at school says Father Christmas is real, but we know that he's just a fun tradition. We won't say so at school, though, because that would be rude to those people who do believe in him.')

"Its just stories at age 5. Not indoctrination"

If you think it is just stories that will go in one ear and out the other, then why bother with RE at age 5?

Cote, I agree. It depends entirely on how the story is introduced.

If it is 'This is the story of Noah's Ark. It appears in the Old Testament, which is part of the Christian Bible and also the Jewish Torah, so it is a story which is important in both those religious traditions', that's fine.

If it is 'Listen children, this is how God made rainbows', then that's different....

Cote I think you're quoting me. We aren't in a place that has RE (brits in the UK where religious teaching in state schools is actually against the law....). Sorry, I should have specified that.

Of course the story of Noah's Ark is told as something that actually happened. "And then Noah started the build his ship etc".

Do you think that children are told "This is just a story, by the way" at any point during those RE classes?

""Its just stories at age 5. Not indoctrination"
This is the standard line that Christians tend to produce. So if it's just stories, then why those particular stories? And I'm sure you'll be happy with them being told stories about satan worship, and performing rituals to the mother goddess too. Yes?

anonymosity - Yes, I was quoting you, but my comment is about the OP as I think yours was.

OP's 5-year-old DD has religious education. Maybe not formally, but these regular visits of the "local youth education group" are RE nonetheless.

i meant USA - not uk
caffiene lack

I think its a difficult situation in the UK, I wouldn't know how to go about fixing it.

Oh dear Seeker -that's a bit extreme. I'm not actually a Christian, though that's really not relevant (nor any of your business).

i'm off to hide in Baby Names or Adult fiction this thread is too inflamatory for my taste.

Seeker, I read Hindu stories, Christian stories, Jewish stories, Islamic stories, as well as Native American stories, Greek and Norse myths and others about e.g. shamen, creation myths from different cultures etc, to my children (both my own, and the ones I teach). I would always say that they are stories that have, or had, meaning to paricular groups of people.

So they are stories with a particular cultural and religious context, which I explain. I do not try to indoctrinate the children in relation to Christian stories, any more than I am trying to make my class believe in Thor or Athene or Shiva.

However, they are still not 'just stories' in the way that Rainbow Fairies are 'just stories', and it is important that children are told that in an age-appropriate way.

(It is also important, IMHO, that children know that people they know, or may encounter, believe in particular things, and that those beliefs should be treated with respect. So when talking about Easter, I will say that this is a particularly important story to Christians such as Mr X [local vicar]; or we will discuss people in the public eye who are Hindus or Musilms and this may have a particular story as part of their faith tradition. We will also discuss how to show respect to people of different faiths and none.)

When my DD was in primary school, every now and again (usually at harvest festival) the head would call in a local evangelical group consisting of two women to conduct the service. I have no idea why. But I do remember on one occasion, these two women talked about how amazing it was that you could plant a seed and it would grow into a crop or a vegetable or a flower and no-one knew how.

But of course we do know how: it's a process called photosynthesis.

I think it's quite wrong that people should be allowed into schools to spread this nonsense. Schools should be celebrating knowledge, not ignorance.

My child has been singing 'God's not dead!' today at school. I am quite involved with her school and and have been there when they do regular trips to the church and get told about Jesus, like it's established fact, rather than a belief.

I would like to withdraw dd from all this, because I believe that faith is something that should come from the family, not from the school, but it seems to be so interwoven in what their class does, that it's not as simple as withdrawing her from assemblies. I don't want her to feel separate from her friends or excluded from class activities.

But still, it grates. I resent my child being told all this stuff as if is an incontrovertible truth.

Absolutely, teacher- that's right. But it is soooo important to stress that, although they are important to some people, they are just stories. And I hear so many accounts of children being told the Christian versions as the true ones, and the other faith's versions as just stories. Particularly when assemblies are "Christian in nature".

As I said above, seeker:

"Where a teacher is from a Christian background, and that is the 'majority faith' within the school (at least culturally, if not in terms of active practice), sometimes there is a tendency to present it in a more 'we believe' context, without the surrounding caveats."

And I also said that, as an atheist RE co-ordinator, albeit from a very strongly Christian background, I worked very hard NOT to fall into that trap.

The problem I have with inviting groups into school to present both sides of the argument, so to speak, is that parents are then led to believe it's all ok, even if one group's views are very extreme. "Well, we presented both sides so that's ok."

In DS' RE lesson (year 10), the students were looking at the issues around abortion (yes, seriously! In RE!) and the fundamentalist christian Head of RE invited SPUC in to talk to the students. SPUC is a virulently anti-abortion, homophobic organisation who campaign against euthanasia, IVF and same-sex marriage. When I questioned this, I was told I could recommend an organisation to invite in to present the other side. But my point was that SPUC had no business peddling their bigotry in state-funded schools. When I contacted SPUC to ask the what their presentation would be about, I was told there was no need to present the other side, because what SPUC said "was the truth".

Good for you Suffolk. If only more parents did this, they would run out of schools to go to. I made such a fuss, they didn't get invited in in the end. Result.

However, DS still had to put up with a PowerPoint in class with a colour slide of a 28-week-old aborted foetus.

So glad we talk rationally about these things at home.

I should have wondered why you had so much sway over the head Suffolk! (Unless you've got some compromising pictures of him /her ...)

I'm so glad you got that stopped, SR. Is there somewhere that gives clear information about the facts about abortion. I was fed so much anti-abortion stuff as a kid that I don't know what is true and what isn't. It was such a relief when there was a tv show about it and a doctor carried out an abortion and discussed it, then I saw how straightforward and not frightening the whole thing was.

SuburbanRhonda believes that Education for Choice www.efc.org.uk is the best source of factual information about abortion around. They do go into schools, but have to charge, because they don't have access to the kinds of funds other organisations have. But they were very supportive when it looked like SPUC were going to be going into DS' school.

I really wish we could have a permanent thread in primary ed saying: No your school is not being unreasonable, they are following THE LAW.

You can think its abhorent all you like. All state schools in England conduct Christian worship. Why? Because they have to. Why Christianity not other religions. Because the law states 'broadly Christian character' And in actual fact schools with large percentages of children from other religions, can appeal to be able to preach in broadly Muslim, Jewish, Hindu etc character.

Why shouldnt Christians present their religion as 'true' - they believe it is! You are horrified by them telling your children about Jesus, they are probably equally horrified when they hear people saying they dont believe in it.

If you think your children are not able to hear something, think its true and then question it and decide it isnt then you dont think much of your children. It wont harm them and may in fact do them some good. Hiding Christians from them leads to the 'religious people are stupid' attitude as they have never come across them before and are then shocked when they do.

RE is different, RE should be unbiased. An education, not instruction or indoctrination. Worship is different.