to think God has no place in my 5 year old's school

[MeSoFunny]

She told me at bedtime last night that 'bad people die but Jesus came to suffer for us so we don't have to'. We're not religious, in fact we're Humanists, and fail to see why a non-religious school would be inviting a local youth 'education' group in to give regular assemblies to children this young (if at all).

Why aren't other people questioning it? Why aren't our children being encouraged to develop critical faculties? I'm feeling frustrated and cross.

MeSo, your DD is lucky. We were subjected to a Christian Youth Group yelling 'JIM! I've got Jesus In Me!' complete with wide eyed manic grinning and jazz hands right up in our face when I was at school. They thought they were yoof, in fact they were hysterically earnest and we might have taken the piss. A lot. However, we were at secondary school, so taking the piss is pretty much on the curriculum.

I wouldn't be overly impressed with such blatant favouritism of one religion at 5, tbh. And I'm a crap Christian. YANBU to enquire as to why this group is in regularly, and where the other faith representatives are.

The Pagans had a Hare as a symbol of the Spring Equinox though cantspel.

I've always assumed the chocolate eggs was an amalgamation of the egg symbols and the feasts.

Are you absolutely sure she was told it as absolute truth though? 5 year olds are very literal and have selective hearing, she might have glossed over the 'some people believe' waffle and just absorbed the content.

My 5 year old came home crying the other week swearing blind that her teacher had definitely told her that my sister and her family had all died in a big fire today. Turned out that they had started to study the great fire of london and, as my family live in London, she had decided that they must all be dead!

Of course rabbits and chocolate weren't part of early pagan beliefs, because rabbits and chocolate did not exist in Britain at that time. But beliefs change and develop over time, as various groups migrated to Britain and as Christianity and pagan beliefs developed alongside of each other.

We just had a new HT who is very religious. She has changed the church the kids go to from COE to RC. We have regular and I mean regular RC teachings in assembly and now my child is asking me "will I go to hell mummy, if i am naughty"?. Tough one to negotiate around. Nothing against any religion, but doing this by stealth does not seem right!

There's quite a bit of misunderstanding about what schools must do relating to religion. The requirement:

• applies to maintained schools only. This matters because of the rapid growth in academies and free schools, who are not bound by the requirements
• is for a daily act of collective worship that is broadly Christian in character

Academies, free schools and private schools do not have to do daily worship. They can also do more than daily worship. And it need not be Christian. As just one example, University College School is a private school in NW London which has no daily act of worship and is explicitly secular in character - unsurprising, seeing as it was founded as part of University College London, as a secular alternative to Oxbridge. As another example, I think the schools run by Ark are all secular and have no religious worship.

"Maintained schools are funded by central government via the local authority, and do not charge fees to students. The categories of maintained school are: community, community special, foundation (including trust), foundation special (including trust), voluntary aided and voluntary controlled. There are also maintained nursery schools and pupil referral units.

Most maintained mainstream schools operate within a two-tier education system. These are primary, which includes infant and junior, and secondary. Some schools operate within a three-tier system of first, middle and upper schools, while others are known as ?all-through?, and provide for both primary and secondary aged pupils."

What I firmly object to is the delivery of one faith as some kind of unquestioned 'truth' in a way which doesn't allow for critical response.

^this^

As an atheist, very strongly so, and someone who believes in equality, I abhor the idea that children are being fed Christian "truths" unless going to a faith school. By all means, teach RE to give an understanding and respect for religion but don't preach.

OP, I would sit in on one of these assemblies if possible, find out what is going on.

I am surprised at how religious ds school is that is not what they told us and other parents when visiting the school it seems to be since they had a new headmaster

Ds has been talking about the great God and baby Jesus and how he died on the cross for us all but then said he died and came alive just like superman did can he fly too? :)

No mention of other religions or beliefs so have spoken about them with him myself and that for some like myself there is no god and that is ok too

What I firmly object to is the delivery of one faith as some kind of unquestioned 'truth' in a way which doesn't allow for critical response.

You don't know that this was exactly what happened in the classroom, though. 5 year olds aren't the best for reporting everything word for word, so before you go in all guns blazing, calm down and ask the teacher/ head teacher.

'I would prefer schools to be able to present religion more responsibly ' - I supect you mean you would prefer them not to present it at all don't you? I think a sense of perspective is needed here. You and the child's father are the MAJOR influences in her life. Overwhelmingly chance is that she'll grow up believeing what you believe. However - what if she doesn't? She may grow up to find a personal faith. You need to prepare yourself for that as an outcome and not simply see it as brainwashing. Just as I, a practicing Christian, have to accept that my daughters may not share my faith as they grow up and not see that as aetheist brainwashing.

I do sympathise, it's not easy though to see our children exposed to things that we don't embrace. My husband is from a pretty strict Brethren Christian background. He was a bit taken aback when dd3 came home talking about diwali and bearing a candle holder she'd made. I told him to get a grip

I also know some Chrsitians who have chosen to home school their children because they want them only exposed to Christian thinking. I don't agree with that at all either - but you can see this issue does cut both ways.

Youn never see a thread from someone getting their knickers in a twist when there child has learnt about diwali or eid at school but as soon as they cover the easter story suddenly the school is brain washing them.

What I firmly object to is the delivery of one faith as some kind of unquestioned 'truth' in a way which doesn't allow for critical response.

What bothers me most is not the teaching about faith systems (provided that this teaching is not based on Christianity being the only true faith) but the way it is presented and when. 5 year olds have a habit of believing what they are told at school and if someone says "Jesus died for you", they may well not have the more sophisticated critical reasoning to think "But that's just your view, isn't it?"

It's for precisely this reason that ds2 was withdrawn from RE. Only it was taught by an evangelical Christian whose classes and corresponding homework assumed that we were all Christians and crossed what I considered to be the line between education and indoctrination.

I think you do need to discuss this at parent's evening and raise your concerns about what sounds like a somewhat evangelical approach that is focussed too heavily on Christianity. Also that your dd (as it to be expected at her age) is taking the message far too literally.

To be fair, cantspell, it is always easier for a school / teacher to remember to do the 'some people believe' speil about a religion which is not their own / not the majority faith in the school - so eid and diwali will tend to be discussed in a 'learning about another religion' context in such schools.

Where a teacher is from a Christian background, and that is the 'majority faith' within the school (at least culturally, if not in terms of active practice), sometimes there is a tendency to present it in a more 'we believe' context, without the suroounding caveats.

(As an atheist RE co-ordinator in a CofE school [long story], I did the caveats for every religion - but I know that it can be harder to remember to do so)

Maybe it's down to how it is taught. Muslims Hindus celebrate blah blah but this is the truth that is told to them over and over again

I do get your point about only inviting in one group with one view...our school does this and I have questioned it but I also don't see the major harm

I am a humanist but I believe my children have a right to experience faiths and beliefs before rejecting or accepting to follow one

The issue is they need exposure to different faiths nor just Christianity

catspel - becausediwali or eid or whatever generally aren't taught as the truth, but as a culturally important ritual. Nothing more.

Perhaps teaching the bible in schools would help discipline? If children at morning assembly were reminded

The eye that mocketh at his father, and despiseth to obey his mother, the ravens of the valley shall pick it out, and the young eagles shall eat it. -- Proverbs 30:17

?If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, and they shall say to the elders of his city, ?This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.? Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst

And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them. -- 2 Kings 2:23-24

Now don't run in the corridors and make sure your shirt is tucked in.

It wasn't in a classroom setting where the kids could engage or be encouraged to question it. It was being presented as the truth, at least that is my impression but I am going to ask about sitting in on the next one.

I don't think that it is unreasonable to expect schools to teach children how to think rather than what to think.

MesoFunny - I think that most reasonable idea has lost any credence it had in our education system now that Gove (who incidently wrote a new preface for the bible for schools!?) has got his claws into it.

I went on an Easter time trip to our local church with my DS when he was quite young. I did think the telling of the Easter story that we listened to there was inappropriate in some ways for the children, as it included things like the sound and sight of (pretend) nails being hammered into a large wooden cross. And probably the message that Jesus died for us, or for our sins. As some of the children were of other faiths, notably muslim children, and as all of the children were young, 5 or 6, I thought this was going too far and could be scary to some, especially in an unfamiliar environment presented by someone they didn't know.
School not a faith school either.
I think they should have stuck to a "for Christians Easter is all about new life" message, and perhaps we could have looked for some signs of spring in the churchyard, as there are always lots of charming miniature spring flowers springing up there at that time of year. Possibly look at a typical Easter garden with a miniature depiction of the women visiting the tomb and finding the stone rolled away, that I always used to love looking at as a child in my Grandpa's church. That way too it can much more easily be seen as a picture or story to be interpreted in different ways according to different beliefs people hold.