to think God has no place in my 5 year old's school

[MeSoFunny]

She told me at bedtime last night that 'bad people die but Jesus came to suffer for us so we don't have to'. We're not religious, in fact we're Humanists, and fail to see why a non-religious school would be inviting a local youth 'education' group in to give regular assemblies to children this young (if at all).

Why aren't other people questioning it? Why aren't our children being encouraged to develop critical faculties? I'm feeling frustrated and cross.

Of course anyone talking about their own faith is going to present it as fact - why wouldn't they? To someone with faith their faith is fact to them.

Having any subjected presented in a different way is a great way of engaging children. Perhaps you should look if their is anything similar for other religions locally and give the details to the school if you are concerned about only one view point being given? I would check what they actually do though before believing a 5 year old is giving a truly accurate view

Would you all be horror struck if your dcs came home and told you they had decided to become Christians?

At 5, yes. I would.

However, as adults (which they are) it is not my business to be struck with horror about beliefs which I would hope that they had made an informed decision to follow.

I think that is a matter for the governors and the local authority. You should really fight your corner on this as it is religion by stealth. How would parents feel if they got a member of the labour party in to do some talks? Or the BNP? Or if someone came in and told them that the fairies in the bottom of their garden are real and have a message for them?

I'm not misunderstanding anything hiddenhome. I grew up with a very religious grandmother, went to Sunday school and chose to do GCSE RE when it was still optional.

I have considered my stance on religion very carefully and - as most parents - have a hope that my children would have the same values as me.

I'd be very disappointed if my children chose - when they are old enough - to become Christians as I believe that is it akin to basing your life on a folk tale.

I'll read Finding Happiness if you'll read The God Delusion.

Oh, that's threads piss me off soooooo much! Somebody quite reasonably says that they don't want their child taught the Christian message as fact in a state primary school, and everybody piles in with "oh, so you don't want your child taught about Christianity- how incredibly blinkered you are. What makes you think your world view is right?"

The point is that the Op, me, and many may other people do not want our children to be taught how to do Christianity at school. Obviously it would be bonkers not to want them to be taught about it, and about other faiths. We just don't want them to be taught to actually pray to a Christian god, or that Christianity is fact. Why is that so hard to understand?

t

Thanks Seeker. That's exactly right. Many here seem to have adopted a strangely over-defensive position in response to my point. It stifles debate.

Well said seeker

Would you all be horror struck if your dcs came home and told you they had decided to become Christians?

I have to be honest and say I would be horrified and baffled if my child came home and told me they were following any faith. But if they were old enough it's up to them so fair enough.

Christ sake don't get me started on religion and schools.

I don't care if my daughter grows up worshipping a flying cabbage called Bob, providing she has thought about it independently and hasn't been trained to see everything in her life through a green leafy Bob-shaped lens.

That isn't what the OP said though Seeker. I would agree with any of the following:

1. Religion should not be taught as fact.
2. There should be less RE in schools.
3. There should be more about topics like morality, myth and tradition that are currently taught as part of RE that in the future should be taught much more from non-religious perspectives.
4. That schools should clearly make a distinction between RE and religious worship and that religious groups going into school should be phrasing things as "Christians believe" or "Sikhs belive."

I just don't agree that:

1. There are currently non-religious primary schools.
2. That people's dislike of religion being in school should be taken up with the school rather than the government.
3. That religious groups should never be allowed into schools.
4. That young children should be taught to question or engage in critical thinking about whether religion is 'real' or 'true' with the groups that have come into school. It would be disrespectful to the people who held those views for such an activity to take place. Even if done separately from a visit, I would think it would be highly dubious for young children to get into a class debate or questioning about the existence of God, because they are bound to be influenced into believing in God even if the discussion is 'balanced' for numerous age related reasons, including that many young children are much more likely to have fantasy prone personalities than adults.

It would be disrespectful to the people who held these views for such an activity to take place

Seriously? I'm completely at this.

I think it would be. I don't think you have a religious group come in and start going on about Jesus or whatever, and have a bunch of five years old going, "I don't believe in God," or "Jesus was just some guy" or "that makes no sense" and so on. They've been invited to come in and talk about their beliefs and culture, not get challenged. All kinds of people come into schools and say things which I personally take issue with, a lot of which has nothing to do with religion. But not all of life is about me, my opinion and expressing my beliefs or challenging people on things I don't agree with. A lot of young people currently don't seem to have learned that lesson.

That being said, I'd go into your school and say you think that you have concerns that this particular Christian group are not presenting things in an appropriate way, or that the school isn't putting that group in an appropriate context. I'd certainly want to sit in on one of these assemblies if it was my child, so I could see what it is that is going on. It could actually be a lot worse than your DD is reporting back.

"4. That young children should be taught to question or engage in critical thinking about whether religion is 'real' or 'true' with the groups that have come into school. It would be disrespectful to the people who held those views for such an activity to take place"

Can I ask- do you object to children being taught "critical thinking" at school?

I agree that a school can't cover the religious groups visit by saying that "it was an exercise in critical thinking" as the children are too young and not capable.

Therefore the visit is religion by stealth and the religious group should sue for being treated disrespectfully because they were brought in under false pretenses. It's a win-win as far as I can see.

No, I don't object to critical thinking. I just think there are specific ways of teaching it, and that varies by age. I can't see how you could have a conversation about the existence of God or various other supernatural religious ideas that didn't lead young children into believing or not believing depending on what was said.

I think some children are so certain within themselves (only one of mine, from age 3) that is all ridiculous, that he couldn't be swayed. But most children would be. I'm prepared to change my mind on this though.

"I just don't agree that... 4. That young children should be taught to question or engage in critical thinking about whether religion is 'real' or 'true' with the groups that have come into school"

Whyever not?

DD is able to think for herself. I have her excused from RE but if some religious group were to come to school and start trying to convince her of their brand of religion, she would very likely tell them that none of it sounds real.

I hope you don't expect people to teach their DC "You must not tell people what you think when they try to convert you into their religion because they don't like it. Just humour them, darling".

"No, I don't object to critical thinking. I just think there are specific ways of teaching it, and that varies by age. I can't see how you could have a conversation about the existence of God or various other supernatural religious ideas that didn't lead young children into believing or not believing depending on what was said. I think some children are so certain within themselves (only one of mine, from age 3) that is all ridiculous, that he couldn't be swayed. But most children would be. "

Exactly. This is why all religious "education" at nursery/preschool level is essentially brainwashing. Small children just believe what they are told by people of authority, and accept is as fact.

If I told somebody they were wrong every time they were wrong, it would be all I ever did. It would be a huge waste of my time as well as being rude.

I don't see how you can critically think about the basis of religion anyway. How do you think critically about a belief which is non-rational? It would be better to teach critical thinking by looking at two rational beliefs which are in opposition to each other and evaluate which is more likely to be right.

Of course you can apply critical thinking to religion. That's why creationists are so opposed to it being taught in schools!

Small children also forget stuff. My DD was in a Baptist preschool where all they talked about was God and Jesus. We moved her to a Jewish preschool where there was very little emphasis on "religion" and after about 3 weeks someone mentioned Jesus and she literally said " jesus who is jesus??"

Its just stories at age 5. Not indoctrination.

Other than coming to the conclusion that religion is non-rational, what critical thinking is it possible to do about religion? There are sociological questions you could look at about the behaviour of religious people, but the actual beliefs are non-rational. So I would think using it as the basis of critical thinking was just a huge waste of time, when there are so many areas of life everyone will need to think critically about. Small children would be better off critically thinking about how best to look after a plant, how to resolve disputes between friends and so on.

agree with everything you said btw, FreyaSnow.

Somebody quite reasonably says that they don't want their child taught the Christian message as fact in a state primary school

Absolutely reasonable.

What is BU is the OP's incredulity that this happens every day in almost every primary school in the UK. Collective acts of worship are the law and while the OP is happy to debate the ins-and-outs of religion, she seems to be ducking this fact. (I don't think it's right either, btw, but I checked out what was likely to happen in my DS school before I sent him there.)

There is no such thing as a non-denominational primary school.
There is no separation of church and state.

And while your HT may well take some of your views on board, I don't believe there's any framework which compels her to do so. I can't stop my HT taking her school to church. I can withdraw my DS from it if I so choose. But the church visits will still continue.

Laws are fallible.

Oh, OK. Just say that to your HT then. That should solve the problem